Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

[DreX]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

I don't know how old the author is, but I'd recon in his 60's, and one thing he makes clear is that a lot of ideas have come and gone, and a lot of 'newly discovered' ideas are things that have been tried and proved to be unpopular in decades past, so it might just be that it's not done much anymore, or the vacuum method alone is the most cost effective.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Quote from page 97 of Helmuth Lemme's book "Electric Guitar. Sound Secrets and Technology". Chapter 3.3 "Processing quality"

"In order to free a p'up in microphony the winding must be very firm. A wire moving in a magnetic field induces voltage, resulting in it functioning as a kind of microphone. Fortunately, this does not happen very often with the modern types of but sometimes in older models it can prove to be very frustrating, e.g. in the case of a De Armond *1000*, shown in fig. 5.6. To prevent this, the wires are stuck to each other by dipping the redy wound coil into liquid wax. However this is not an easy task as the wax does not always penetrate fully to the inside of the coil and so microphony can still occur at times. This is why the better manufacturers wax their products in a vacuum or they run the wire through a wax bath during winding"


this is an image close to the original fig 5.6. It's the De Armond 1000 p'up, aka "monkey on a stick".

Yes, it actually IS in there. I blame it on a less-than-optimal translation from the original German book... unless Helmuth knows something we don't?

EDIT: DreX, you beat me to the punch!

HTH,

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Helmuth is going to have to actually name names of anyone who drags their wire through a wax bath as it's being laid onto the coil. It seems asinine to me. It will change the way the wire lays up on itself. There are things like bondable wire, there are techniques like winding "wet" with something that flashes off quickly, but I personally haven't seen anyone do that. Maybe it's something he thought of himself, and has projected it upon "quality winders"?

Either way he includes vacuum potting as something quality winders do, and Duncan is pretty much THE inventor of this technique. By definition, if the vacuum pressure is high enough, then it's simply a matter of time before the air is displaced inside a coil. It still not perfect, but I can't see how a wax bath on the wire is an improvement in any way whatsoever.

 

[DreX]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

It's sounded like an effective but messy thing to do, I'd think the centrifugal force would toss a lot of the wax off, but... I don't know.

Speaking of hand winding, later in the book he warns would be hand winders that maintaining tension is critical, so hand winding without the luxury of vacuum potting might result in microphony.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

hand winding without the luxury of vacuum potting might result in microphony.

This is overcome by EXPERIENCE in hand-winding.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

One coil done, one to go. This one measures 6.12K. It measured 6.3 on the Rio bobbin before I started (remember, I lost maybe 120 turns worth). I think I did OK. Must be 43 awg, or maybe even that 42.5 whatever metric ****, the coil is quite a bit fuller than it was stock. I know my wind isn't as tight and it's scattered more, but still.

This is the bobbin that Jer broke and tried to fix with super glue. I did the same, just after I took the wire off. Sanding marks are from the 60 grit Jerry must have used, I just can't get rid of them.

The funky tall Rio Grande bobbin:

I will say this, I wouldn't try taking the wire off of just any pickup like this to reuse it. I don't think it would work. The combination of the strange and super pliable wax that Rio uses and the not real thorough potting job allow the wire to be removed very easily compared to how the wire came off the SuperD coil. Also, it's really time consuming and could be vaguely obnoxious after a while. Pulling wire from another bobbin demanded my focus, so I couldn't watch TV or anything while doing it. People with less determination "just to see if it will work" probably shouldn't try hand winding a pickup, let alone try reusing the wire from another pickup.

If this pickup turns out cool I might try to devise a stable jig with a fishing reel action and order some wire.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

I case you were wondering (you weren't), nope, I didn't give up. I finished winding the other coil last night. Not one break in this coil, but I will NOT be doing this **** again... unless somehow this is the greatest sounding pickup I've ever heard. I'll wire it up and test it tonight. If all is good, I'll put on the DMZ cover I bought to protect the super glue repaired coil and pot it.

Crossing my fingers that it will sound good.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

I case you were wondering (you weren't),

Actually I was wondering awhile ago how this all came out, Gotta hand it to you though... Takes big hairy ones to wind one by hand like that.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Out of curiosity, I only see one lead from each coil. Where are the others? And yes, I imagine winding by hand is quite the PITA.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Haha . . . dude, that is awesome. You're about 90% of the way to making something broken into something fixed using hard work and ingenuity. There is nothing more badass in the world.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Zhang hand winds 43 awg pickups, I think I can do this.

Hand winds or hand guides? Verrrrry significant distinction there.

The Pure Handwound line is indeed handwound in the most literal sense. Bobbin is not turned by machine, it is wrapped entirely by hand. Yes, all 8,000 to 15,000 turns of it.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Out of curiosity, I only see one lead from each coil. Where are the others? And yes, I imagine winding by hand is quite the PITA.

I just don't have the finish leads soldered on yet. If you look close you can see the end of the coil wire hanging off. The cream coil is finished, but I'll take pics when I do the black coil. I won't make it tonight, hopefully tomorrow.


And Dave, you have even more of my respect now.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

^^
Ok, that's what I was thinking, just wanted to be sure. Soldering those leads on is no fun.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

The Pure Handwound line is indeed handwound in the most literal sense. Bobbin is not turned by machine, it is wrapped entirely by hand. Yes, all 8,000 to 15,000 turns of it.

Wow... that is insane. Please tell me if I'm putting my nose where it doesn't belong but what's the percentage of pickups you sell that are pure hand wound vs hand guided? Seems like it'd be pretty limited considering the time that gets put into it would hike the price up pretty good...

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Wow... that is insane. Please tell me if I'm putting my nose where it doesn't belong but what's the percentage of pickups you sell that are pure hand wound vs hand guided? Seems like it'd be pretty limited considering the time that gets put into it would hike the price up pretty good...

I haven't run any numbers on it, but off the top of my head 10-15%, and probably a third or more of the humbuckers.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

It's alive!

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Clips!

Sent from my Moto X 2014 using Tapatalk

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

Clips is pushing it, at least right now, but here's pics for nerdy types:

I put it in my trusty EC, tuned drop A with 13-64 strings. It really sounds like a 44 awg pickup, really not unlike how the punchbox sounded. Really balanced, no big spikes or anything. It's very tight, and a little fuzzy on the very top end, very Duncan Distortion like, just with less high mids. Compared to the other SuperD it's darker, has less bottom, less highs, slightly less power, is tighter and has quite a bit less compression. It sounds really nice playing jazzy stuff on the clean channel, even in drop A, which I don't normally do, but it sounds nice to me.

With my new custom OPAMP Muff it sounds ridiculous for teh IzzO))) riffs.

Neck pickup is a 496R/490R double screw hybrid with a ceramic magnet and Dimarzio hex screws, and it's awesome too, if anyone gives a ****.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Winders, is this even worth the effort? Tips?

That is seriously kick ass dude!