Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

[Lewguitar]

I have a pair of Tom Holmes alnico 2 humbuckers in my PRS Custom 22:



I've had these Holmes humbuckers for about 15 years. I had them in a nice Les Paul for a long time and when I sold that guitar I installed them in this PRS. I also replaced all of the wiring: 500K CTS master volume, CTS 500K master tone with Hovland .02 Musicap, and 3 way switch.

Up until today the tone control has been attached to the output jack like Hamer does it. Since the tone control is connected after the volume control, that's the essence of the 50's mod.

I had it this way because I wanted to retain treble when the volume control is turned down to keep the guitar's tone from getting muddy. And it worked.

However, the guitar has always sounded a little to bright to me wired this way.

Today I moved the tone control to the input of the volume control - the same terminal on the volume control that the pickups are connected to. The modern way of connecting the tone control.

The difference this change made to the tone of the guitar is dramatic. Less sizzle. Sounds more like a normal guitar now and so far, more pleasant to listen to.

I know some have written that when the volume is on 10 that their guitar sounds the same with the 50's mod or without it, and that it's only when the volume is turned down or the tone control is turned down that the difference in tone of the two ways of connecting the tone control become apparent.

When it comes to this guitar, that is just not true. With the volume and tone on 10 it now has a more pleasing and warmer tone. The tone of the whole guitar has become warmer.

When I turn the volume down it acts like any other guitar now and does lose some treble.

Still - I think I prefer the overall warmer and fuller tone this change has made.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

BTW, here's what the 50's mod is based on. This is a photo of the innards of a real pre-1956 Gibson Les Paul. You can see that the tone capacitors are connected between the volume and tone controls for each pickup. If you look carefully you can see that the capacitor is connected to the middle terminal of the volume control - the wiper/the output.

IModern wiring is about the same except that the tone capacitor is connected to the input of the volume pot - the same terminal that the pickup is connected to.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I agree with the OP.
'50s tone mod isn't for each axe. It highly depends on pickups.
With all pots at 10, there is clear increase on high end and, that could be a godsend for some dark pickups or a hell for brighter ones.
You never know what will do for your axe before trying it.
I don't like in stratos but, I liked in LPs with traditional PAF humbuckers.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I agree with the OP.
'50s tone mode isn't for each axe. It highly depends on pickups.
With all pots at 10, there is clear increase on high end and, that could be a godsend for some dark pickups or a hell for brighter ones.
You never know what will do for your axe before trying it.
I don't like in stratos but, I liked in stratos with traditional PAF humbuckers.

Phew...what a relief! I was starting to wonder if it was just me. Thanks!

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Phew...what a relief! I was starting to wonder if it was just me. Thanks!

you're welcome, master.
BTW, I wanted to say: I liked in LP's with PAFs.
OMG!.
Fixing the post.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I'm sorry to hijack this thread but,
Lew, knowing you, did you tried Jetter Gear' stuff?.
I bet you will love their Red square!.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I'm sorry to hijack this thread but,
Lew, knowing you, did you tried Jetter Gear' stuff?.
I bet you will love their Red square!.

No. Don't even know who or what that is. Can you tell me about it?

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

 

[ErikH]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I've noticed this same affect too when I first started doing 50's wiring. Since I had to thin the herd here I have one guitar with a tone control and it is wired up 50's style. I like it that way for that guitar.

Even with the tone control on 10, in either scheme, there's still some pull of the signal through the tone control and cap (low pass filter). It's easy to see with a DMM. You can even play with the tone cap values and hear a slight difference of how it warms up or brightens up the sound with the pot on 10. Now, change the pot to a no-load and then it's as if you don't have a tone control at all when it's on 10.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Now, change the pot to a no-load and then it's as if you don't have a tone control at all when it's on 10.

How do you think using a no-load tone pot changes the overall tone of the guitar Erik? Compared to both 50's wiring with a normal tone pot after the volume control and standard wiring with a normal tone pot before the volume control?

 

[ErikH]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

How do you think using a no-load tone pot changes the overall tone of the guitar Erik? Compared to both 50's wiring with a normal tone pot after the volume control and standard wiring with a normal tone pot before the volume control?

A no-load pot removes the tone control from the circuit completely. It's the same as if you desoldered or clipped the tone control wire hooked to the volume pot. It's just not there, just like running volume only. Treble is retained when rolling the volume back like with the 50's wiring and there's a little more brightness and fullness overall. I tend to prefer it like that most of the time. My SG Jr is the one wired with 50's mod as I wanted to retain the volume/tone setup with it.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I've tried some direct-to-jack switches, that bypass volume and tone (more or less same as no-load pot).
The effect I've experienced is a bump in output, more or less as if you stepped on a +3dB booster pedal and, a clear increase of high-end which, depending on the natural brightness of the pickup can sound even harsh.
But it's handy for soloing, going direct to bridge pickup with an omph, independently of which selection you have in your 5-way.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

in most guitars I don't like no tone control, it does increase brightness but usually sounds harsh to me.

I do like the jetter stuff though. got a red shift that i really like. usually on shift rather than red

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I mostly agree with that no-tone-control stuff but, to be honest, my charvel socal type1 with just a volume pot sounds really nice.
Maybe, this makes more sense for humbuckers, specially the fatter or darker ones but, surely not for strato singles.

I know what you mean. The Shift is more Marshallish but, for that, I've got the Dharma, instead.
After trying lots of top-notch boutique gain pedals (Wampler, Mad Professor, Weehbo, Fulltone, ...), I am absolutelly blown up with Jetter Gear stuff.
I've never heard gain pedals that sounded so close to a boiling tube amp.
I bet that man runs his effects with a mix of the original dry signal and the wet signal, because they sound always articulated but, with that tube gain character.
They can sound uggly close to your speaker but, as soon as you step out your amp between 4 to 6 meters, the sound is rock stadium.
I know Pete Thorn is using some Jetter's also and, that man has a load of tone.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

in most guitars I don't like no tone control, it does increase brightness but usually sounds harsh to me.

I do like the jetter stuff though. got a red shift that i really like. usually on shift rather than red

Interesting. Over on the Gear Page a guy was talking about Strats and about how he didn't like moving the middle pickup tone control to the bridge pickup (like I do) because it made the middle pickup to bright and to thin without a tone control connected to it and loading it down.

That is what I thought might happen and why I asked about the difference in sound of a pickup with:

1. pickup with no tone pot or no-load tone pot
2. pickup with tone pot
3. pickup with tone pot connected 50's mod style.

 

[JimmyO]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Interesting. Over on the Gear Page a guy was talking about Strats and about how he didn't like moving the middle pickup tone control to the bridge pickup (like I do) because it made the middle pickup to bright and to thin without a tone control connected to it and loading it down.

That is what I thought might happen and why I asked about the difference in sound of a pickup with:

1. pickup with no tone pot or no-load tone pot
2. pickup with tone pot
3. pickup with tone pot connected 50's mod style.


I don't have experience yet with 50s mod wiring (though I have just ordered a 50s style les paul wiring harness from mojotone as soon as it gets unfrozen in transit from the east coast). However I do have two US strats. One is a 57 reissue with regular 250k Pots and one is a 2012 US standard with the no-load tone on the bridge and middle pickups.

On the 57 I found the bridge pickup on its own too bright and have wired it to the middle tone control in addition to the middle pickup. It makes a big difference to the bridge pickup and it it much less harsh and I can filter out highs. I mostly play blues and classic rock so set up my amp so that my neck pickup is well balanced and I can roll down the highs on the bridge pickup as needed. The other way around setting the amp up to the bridge pickup - the neck pickup would be too dark and I can't add highs using the neck tone control. One thing I may do is move the middle pickup to share the neck tone control so I can adjust the bridge tone independently.

For the 2012 strat with the no load control I find this to be a great balanced design. I usually have the bridge/middle tone at about 9.5 so it is engaged but not taking out too many highs. This gives me the option of winding down the tone to darken the sound or clicking it up to 10 to take it out of the circuit if I need more cut for soloing or clean country style. The neck tone I leave at 10.

The no load tone gives you a good perspective for how the highs are filtered out by just adding the pot to the circuit vs being bypassed. I've found it gives a best of both worlds.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I don't have experience yet with 50s mod wiring (though I have just ordered a 50s style les paul wiring harness from mojotone as soon as it gets unfrozen in transit from the east coast). However I do have two US strats. One is a 57 reissue with regular 250k Pots and one is a 2012 US standard with the no-load tone on the bridge and middle pickups.

On the 57 I found the bridge pickup on its own too bright and have wired it to the middle tone control in addition to the middle pickup. It makes a big difference to the bridge pickup and it it much less harsh and I can filter out highs. I mostly play blues and classic rock so set up my amp so that my neck pickup is well balanced and I can roll down the highs on the bridge pickup as needed. The other way around setting the amp up to the bridge pickup - the neck pickup would be too dark and I can't add highs using the neck tone control. One thing I may do is move the middle pickup to share the neck tone control so I can adjust the bridge tone independently.

For the 2012 strat with the no load control I find this to be a great balanced design. I usually have the bridge/middle tone at about 9.5 so it is engaged but not taking out too many highs. This gives me the option of winding down the tone to darken the sound or clicking it up to 10 to take it out of the circuit if I need more cut for soloing or clean country style. The neck tone I leave at 10.

The no load tone gives you a good perspective for how the highs are filtered out by just adding the pot to the circuit vs being bypassed. I've found it gives a best of both worlds.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the detailed response!

I rarely use the middle pickup by itself and prefer it without the tone control attached and I just move it to the bridge pickup. One reason is that the #2 and #4 settings are more clear and bright that way. The reason is that when a tone pot is on the neck pickup and also on the middle pickup when those two pickups are combined you also combine the two tone pots. That makes the 250K tone pots sound like a single 125K tone pot and the tone loses a lot of treble. Some guys prefer that though.

Back in the 50's, when the Strat was invented, rock and roll was in its infancy and most of the electric guitarists were country western guys.

Treble and Twang were like a special effect and switching to the bridge pickup on a Strat with no bridge pickup tone control was so trebley and unusual sounding that it was almost the equivalent of stomping on a pedal is today.

Although in those days there were no pedals - except the on/off for amp tremolo.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

As everything, it's a matter of taste.
Only way to know what works for everyone is just to test everything.

 

[metalmantiss]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I basically did the same to an Agile LP copy that I got new for $168 plus $55 for the case. The difference it made changed my mind about the guitar, and I left the crappy pickups in it, that's how much better it sounds after doing the re-wire. Crappy pic but you get the idea, I put a 0.15uF for the neck and a 0.22uF for the bridge. I might one day toss some PAFs' in it but for now it sounds killer.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

As everything, it's a matter of taste.
Only way to know what works for everyone is just to test everything.

Absolutely! That's the ticket. Don't take anyone's word for it. Do the work yourself and find out what you like.