Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Absolutely! That's the ticket. Don't take anyone's word for it. Do the work yourself and find out what you like.

Thank you, Lew.
Your post made me re-think on what I am actually doing with 4 set of strato pickups that I have to test.
Those are top-notch boutique pickups and, I started my tests with a pre-wired pickguard with one of my crazy designs.
But, since I have also T1 assigned to Neck and T2 assigned to bridge, that middle is a bit thin and trebly (which I really don't care, because when I use middle is just for funky stuff) but, what I am not able to find is a good sound with that bridge pickup. Probably, the load of both tone pots is what it actually needs!.

I think I should use a "standard strato" pickguard (I am gonna re-do some) to first evaluate those pickups in their natural way and then, to correct anything else, if it's the case.
After a month of fighting, your post put me back to the track.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Wow - you guys who don't like 50's wiring may have been right!

Re: Wow - you guys who don't like 50's wiring may have been right!

Also try swapping in a .047uf tone cap. Even with the pot on 10, it will warm it up. If it's still too bright, try .01uf.

On my last SSS Strat, I opted for a shared tone cap, tone on neck and bridge, nothing on the middle and a .01uf cap. EJ wiring really. I did have a 500k volume though. The pickups were Fender SCN's and the 500k volume opened them up while the larger tone cap kept it from being too bright. It sounded real sweet.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Excuse me but isn't this the 50s mod that is electrically the same with pots full open, compared to regular modern?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Excuse me but isn't this the 50s mod that is electrically the same with pots full open, compared to regular modern?

I dunno about that, but I do know with the pots "full open" (meaning turned all the way up) my guitar sounds brighter with the tone control attached to the output of the volume control than it does with the tone pot attached in front of the volume control to the input.

IMO, if you want the guitar to sound clean and bright and to be able to turn down the volume of the guitar to get a cleaner tone, then use the 50's mod method of hooking up the tone control.

If you want a stronger, fatter tone use the modern method of hooking up the tone control. The draw back is that the guitar will sound a little muddier when you turn the volume pot down and won't clean up as well as with the 50's method.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Interesting. Over on the Gear Page a guy was talking about Strats and about how he didn't like moving the middle pickup tone control to the bridge pickup (like I do) because it made the middle pickup to bright and to thin without a tone control connected to it and loading it down.

That is what I thought might happen and why I asked about the difference in sound of a pickup with:

1. pickup with no tone pot or no-load tone pot
2. pickup with tone pot
3. pickup with tone pot connected 50's mod style.

With the pots full open the first two are electrically equivalent. Of course there is a major difference when turning down the vol pot.

The last thing never does anything.

Sorry. It becomes pretty clear if you re-draw the electrical diagram replacing the pots with simple resistors for the full open position.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I used to believe that. I no longer believe that's true.

The only way to find out is to try it yourself and see if you hear a difference.

Turn the pots all the way up and leave them that way.

Then attach the tone control to the input of the volume pot but don't turn anything down.

Rock out for a while.

Then attach the tone control to the middle terminal (the output) of the volume pot and again: don't turn anything down.

Rock out for a while.

I'm pretty sure you'll hear a difference.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I used to believe that. I no longer believe that's true.

The only way to find out is to try it yourself and see if you hear a difference.

Turn the pots all the way up and leave them that way.

Then attach the tone control to the input of the volume pot but don't turn anything down.

Rock out for a while.

Then attach the tone control to the middle terminal (the output) of the volume pot and again: don't turn anything down.

Rock out for a while.

I'm pretty sure you'll hear a difference.

But there resistance between those two pots is zero if the pot is full open

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

But there resistance between those two pots is zero if the pot is full open

Don't think about it - try it.

Forget about what you think you see. Just try it.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Don't think about it - try it.

Forget about what you think you see. Just try it.

Well I'll try to sneak it in. Let's see what the blind tests say.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow - you guys who don't like 50's wiring may have been right!

Re: Wow - you guys who don't like 50's wiring may have been right!

Also try swapping in a .047uf tone cap. Even with the pot on 10, it will warm it up. If it's still too bright, try .01uf.

On my last SSS Strat, I opted for a shared tone cap, tone on neck and bridge, nothing on the middle and a .01uf cap. EJ wiring really. I did have a 500k volume though. The pickups were Fender SCN's and the 500k volume opened them up while the larger tone cap kept it from being too bright. It sounded real sweet.

0.047 mf is what I use for every axe.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Well I'll try to sneak it in. Let's see what the blind tests say.

Yes. That's one more example where logic goes against experience.
Everything at 10, a pot makes a difference, a cap makes a difference. Hell!, even a 3PDT switch in a pedal with true bypass makes a difference!.
Weird?. It is!.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Yes. That's one more example where logic goes against experience.
Everything at 10, a pot makes a difference, a cap makes a difference. Hell!, even a 3PDT switch in a pedal with true bypass makes a difference!.
Weird?. It is!.

Exactly. Logic goes against experience.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Yes. That's one more example where logic goes against experience.
Everything at 10, a pot makes a difference, a cap makes a difference. Hell!, even a 3PDT switch in a pedal with true bypass makes a difference!.
Weird?. It is!.

Now hold on. It is absolute clear and in the physics/schematics that a volume pot at 10 sounds different than no vol pot (because there is a load resistance), and that a tone pot at 10 sounds different than no tone pot (because it is still a non-zero resistor in series with the capacitor). The objection to the sound difference at 10 for this variant of 50s wiring is that there is no resistance. Unless the pot isn't perfect but that is unlikely.

 

[Top-L]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I dunno about that, but I do know with the pots "full open" (meaning turned all the way up) my guitar sounds brighter with the tone control attached to the output of the volume control than it does with the tone pot attached in front of the volume control to the input.

IMO, if you want the guitar to sound clean and bright and to be able to turn down the volume of the guitar to get a cleaner tone, then use the 50's mod method of hooking up the tone control.

If you want a stronger, fatter tone use the modern method of hooking up the tone control. The draw back is that the guitar will sound a little muddier when you turn the volume pot down and won't clean up as well as with the 50's method.

Based on your description, I SO need to try this. Is this the consensus, that with tone/vol on 10, sound will be a bit brighter?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Based on your description, I SO need to try this. Is this the consensus, that with tone/vol on 10, sound will be a bit brighter?

With the 50's mod? Yes, that's my experience. Your guitar will sound a bit brighter overall and your guitar will clean up without losing so much treble when you turn down the guitar's volume control with the 50's mod.

On the other hand, your guitar will sound warmer, fuller and your overdrive tones will sound thicker and more ballsy without the 50's mod.

BTW, here's a picture of an early 50's Les Paul with the 50's mod...although it's not a mod. It's the way some 50's Les Paul's were wired:

 

[Artie]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

With all pots at 10, there is clear increase on high end and, that could be a godsend for some dark pickups or a hell for brighter ones.

This doesn't make sense to me. At "10", the normal and 50's mod are electrically identical. The 50's mod doesn't come into play until you start to roll the volume pot down. :scratchch

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Something I haven't tried, because I have no guitar to try it on easily, would be doing the 50's mod on the neck pickup so I could clean it up easily for chords and rhythm...and doing the modern wiring on the bridge pickup so it sounded fat and ballsy for solos.

This would be a breeze to try on a Les Paul with a removable back control cover.

 

[Artie]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

Hey Lew; I think it would also be interesting to install a temporary switch, so you could switch back and forth between the two terminals, so that one could hear the immediate difference at all volume/tone settings. I may try this today.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

This doesn't make sense to me. At "10", the normal and 50's mod are electrically identical. The 50's mod doesn't come into play until you start to roll the volume pot down. :scratchch

Again just try it. You'll notice the difference if you play your guitar through a nice tube amp turned up to at least 3 or 4.

No guarantees playing through a computer and computer speakers though.

But try it Artie and then you can figure out for us why it works. Because it does.

 

[Artie]

Re: Wow! Big difference in tone between 50's mod and modern wiring!

I will.