You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

[Hot _Grits]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Sorta related but I've always noticed that any label as a "Professional" series or model usually isn't.

That is so true.
The exception that proves the rule may be Fender CS's dual professional amp.

I've been thinking about the price/performance thing quite a bit recently. I recently played a Custom/historic LP std that was on sale for about 7 grand US. That seems extortionate, but I have to admit it was probably the finest guitar I've ever played. Now, I think especially in light of their QC issues, Gibson take the piss a bit when it comes to pricing. But what price the ultimate guitar?

There is definitely a plateau price for gear, where any additional spending is all down to taste and personalisation. Once you spend a certain amount, it then becomes a matter of how anal you are about tone and/or appearance.

 

[Neeradj]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

I disagree with you Gearjoneser. It might strike as strange from a guy who owns expensive gear, but when I drool at Diezels or Bogners, I play an ENGL for half the price (here in Europe) and I forget why I should pay double. It certainly isn't more durable and 85% of the sounds are obtainable with the ENGL. If I can get a good deal on a Diezel, Bogner or VHT I'll take it, but as long as I don't I simply refuse to pay 3k for amp which doesn't even seem (thát) much better. I believe consumers as well as big companies get spoiled, like Gibson whose quality seems to be decreasing every year. 98% of the guys who own Anderson, Dryskill or PRS guitars will never admit a Korean or Japanese copy which costs 5 times less plays just as well. Those guys usually forget to play their guitars, I actually witnessed that with a guy on a dutch forum! No matter how expensive the gear, you'll always be playing with your fingers, and that's the core of your sound.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Another factor is that many of the players who will plunk down $10K for a Dumble amp, or $8000 for a handmade Jazzbox, or $3000 for a LP Historic, have aquired that taste by owning a lot of good pieces. Those tiny details that add $500 per appointment may seem frivolous to most, but not him. Besides collectors, the caliber of players who gravitate toward these dream guitars and amps are often guys with refined taste, who are looking to go upward and aquire their lifetime instrument.
It must be nice to have $5000 to spend on a guitar, but I'd just hope he plays it, rather than leaving it in it's case out of paranoia. I'd bet that 90% of the TOP of the line guitars go unplayed, unfortunately, only because they think more about the resale than the intent of the instrument. To me, owning an instrument like that would be too hard NOT to play.....I'd just play it daily and baby it at the same time.

 

[Mkf411]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

I agree that most of the time you get what you pay for. But like Gear Joneser has said recently, where you can get more that what you pay for is in the used Boutique market. One thing I like about Gibson is that if you shell out big bucks for a new Gibson and then have to sell it, you'll probably do pretty well on the used market, whereas with some lesser know boutique brands, they go for half price or less on the used market.

 

[TheJangus]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

The most interesting pieces of gear, I find, are the ones that deserve to be expensive, but for some reason aren't.

Right. All guitars of that caliber should be that affordable. They aren't because you are paying for name, for the brand. If shelling out big bucks for a logo makes you feel like you got the best then good for you. Whatever makes you happy. Fact of the matter is that price does not equal quality. It represents what the market will bear. That's based on many factors, quality one of them but not the primary for sure.

 

[aleclee]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

I disagree with you Gearjoneser. It might strike as strange from a guy who owns expensive gear, but when I drool at Diezels or Bogners, I play an ENGL for half the price (here in Europe) and I forget why I should pay double. It certainly isn't more durable and 85% of the sounds are obtainable with the ENGL. If I can get a good deal on a Diezel, Bogner or VHT I'll take it, but as long as I don't I simply refuse to pay 3k for amp which doesn't even seem (thát) much better. I believe consumers as well as big companies get spoiled, like Gibson whose quality seems to be decreasing every year. 98% of the guys who own Anderson, Dryskill or PRS guitars will never admit a Korean or Japanese copy which costs 5 times less plays just as well. Those guys usually forget to play their guitars, I actually witnessed that with a guy on a dutch forum! No matter how expensive the gear, you'll always be playing with your fingers, and that's the core of your sound.

I think you're missing the point. The Diezel has features that your Engl (a fine amp, BTW) doesn't. You might not care about those features but that doesn't mean they don't add value for someone else. Those features certainly add to the cost of building the amp.

I'll bet you've never touched a Driskill nor even seen one in real life given there are less then ten in all of Europe and don't even think about the tired old "no guitar is worth that much" argument.

"Usually forget to play their guitars"?!? That's so insulting it doesn't even merit a retort.

Back to the rest of your assertions, you're confusing "you get what you pay for" with "the item's value to you increases with the asking price". I wouldn't buy a Blade/Levninson, Melancon, Anderson or Fender CS guitar because I'm not a stratty kind of guy. I have a perfectly good Squier Strat that plays well enough and sounds good (as good as a single coil guitar will sound to me). However, it would be ridiculous for me to try to convince anyone that the quality of materials, craftsmanship, and hardware on the Squier were anywhere near that of the high-end instrument. I got what I paid for with the Squier. Just because I don't want more doesn't mean that there's not more quality to be had.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Yeah, and I don't want this thread to be a gearsnob type of thing. In the past 30 years, music manufacturers have broken gear down to an exact science, in every aspect. I think one reason Gibsons and Fenders are so popular, besides the fact that they've adorned the images of so many legendary musicians, is that their tone is like a mind virus that's permeated people's minds, just because they've heard those tones on SO many great albums. Then, toward the 80's, music companies began to perfect every aspect of guitars, amps, and FX, and now they've split so many hairs that the price has begun to be 'the sky is the limit.' This is a big world we live in, with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of guitar players. You've got a guy laying on the beach with no possession other than a $30 acoustic all the way to the Vice President of Microsoft, buying millions of dollars worth of collectible guitars.
It's really a profound thing to study the evolution of music equipment. Makes the hobby of automobiles look like a caveman hobby. And, in the auto world, you definitely get what you pay for every step of the way, too. Even if I had Toyota Supra, I'd know a Porshe 911 would blow me off the road.

 

[big_black]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Do you get what you pay for when you pay $32,480.00 for a new Les Paul Standard? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/517188/ Only if it comes with a year supply of hookers and blow.

?

 

[Scott_F]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Do you get what you pay for when you pay $32,480.00 for a new Les Paul Standard? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/517188/ Only if it comes with a year supply of hookers and blow.

If you pay $1999 at GC for a Les Paul Standard, you are an idiot. There are a lot of great places on the net where you can get a new Historic 1957 Reissue Goldtop for that same price. Or you can buy the mother of all Heritage LP's and still have money left over for the blow and the hookers.

GC offers no interest financing and such. They make their money on suckers that will buy into all that financing stuff and end up paying way more than they ought to. Typical GC/AMS/M123, etc.

 

[Thames]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Hmm... hope this thread will end soon. I can see some flying knives coming...

 

[Neeradj]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

I think you're missing the point. The Diezel has features that your Engl (a fine amp, BTW) doesn't. You might not care about those features but that doesn't mean they don't add value for someone else. Those features certainly add to the cost of building the amp.

I'll bet you've never touched a Driskill nor even seen one in real life given there are less then ten in all of Europe and don't even think about the tired old "no guitar is worth that much" argument.

"Usually forget to play their guitars"?!? That's so insulting it doesn't even merit a retort.

Back to the rest of your assertions, you're confusing "you get what you pay for" with "the item's value to you increases with the asking price". I wouldn't buy a Blade/Levninson, Melancon, Anderson or Fender CS guitar because I'm not a stratty kind of guy. I have a perfectly good Squier Strat that plays well enough and sounds good (as good as a single coil guitar will sound to me). However, it would be ridiculous for me to try to convince anyone that the quality of materials, craftsmanship, and hardware on the Squier were anywhere near that of the high-end instrument. I got what I paid for with the Squier. Just because I don't want more doesn't mean that there's not more quality to be had.

Have you ever played them next to eachother? First of all, I admitted the Diezel to have more features, but as you seem to know about those features the ENGL doesn't have (I'm not talking about components, but features) I'd like to know about them, so the next time I'll check out a Diezel I'll be able to tell whether they're there indeed. You see, such a statement can only be backed by proof. We've got a lot of Powerball players and a few Diezel owners here in Holland, we even held meetings to check out eachother's gear, and every time people go home saying how well the Powerball holds up next to a Diezel.

I have indeed never touched a Driskill, and I have to admit I was only summing up boutique brands I knew. That however isn't the case with Anderson and PRS. You're taking everything I posted as a personal insult, a tip of advise: Don't! I am not referring to you alone, as you are not the only person with boutique amps and guitars, if you don't feel offended you might belong to the smaller portion of those folks. But believe me when I tell you, I'm not pulling this out of my nose, but I've actually seen it happen to lots of folks!

The whole problem here is the relation between "you get what you pay for" and "collector's value" is the whole point in this thread. Quality as you've stated, is a personal thing. I personally think a Squier Japan strat, plays a lot better than a Fender Anniversary strat. But that isn't the point, the point is that when I go down to the store and get me a Bogner is whether the price is justified.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

buy used! ...i get way more than what i pay for, most of the time hehehehehe

+1... Ibanez RG570-$140
ESP M100-$125
Ibanez RG7421-$199
Charvel superstrat-$50

Does a $2000+ USA guitar sound better? Maybe. Am I having as much (or more) fun with a million cheaper guitars to mod & f*ck with as one or two really nice ones? Definitely.

 

[kevlar3000]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

I believe in value for my dollar. There is no 3000.00 amp I would trade any of my amps for ( I'm serious). The only thing I look for is tone, my 100.00 1966 Hilgen Basso Grande loaded with mustards, Bugle Boys and RCAs is every bit the tone machine that the new 18 Marshall head that sells for 2000.00 . Hype drives this marketplace to an extent. if you know what your looking for there are amazing deals to be had. My Traynors, Carlsbro, Silvertone, 64 Gibson Mercury are also in the same category ( all 300.00 and under and equal tonally to any vintage amp no matter what name is on the front). My Tokai Tele is better sounding than the USA 62 RI Tele I sold a few years ago . I have to offer public thanks to Terry Kilgore because that man has taught me what is what regarding tone ( George Lynch bought one of Terry's Cbros the day after I got mine and said much the same as me regarding Terry and his knowledge of rock tone). Tone and $$$ don't always speak the same language. I admittidly I could care less about modern tone, FX loops, hi gain, multi channel ect are not things that are important to me, so there is a niche I exist in that does not speak to all players. So in that regard I do think $$$ make a difference. But for me the rule does not apply.

 

[Buckeyedog]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

All I know is you must have good speakers and a good amp. A cheap axe through a good amp/speaker setup can still sound pretty darn good. $3,000 LP will sound like crap through a crap amp/speaker. Kevlar, you bring up some great points, but most folks would'nt know those amps you have and what they do so you are at an advantage. I buy almost exclusively used anymore. Lost too much $$ buying new gear and selling it for squat. You can get quality gear for less $$ that way. Still I say not to skimp on speakers or amp.

 

[kevlar3000]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Kevlar, you bring up some great points, but most folks would'nt know those amps you have and what they do so you are at an advantage. skimp on .

Thats why they are cheap. I feel lucky to have found a guy who knows about this stuff. On the speaker front I would take the new Eminence line over the new Celestion stuff because to my ear they sound better. 1/2 the price too.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

There definitely are exceptions to be found, but blatant comments like "this will destroy any boutique amp" can't possibly be entirely accurate. I agree that there are vintage pieces that sound as good as stuff much more expensive. I put my SF Vibrolux Reverb against a Two Rock Onyx and the leads were very similar, both very smooth, organic and rich, except a huge price difference However, I also realize that there are amps like Fuchs ODS that could very well blow away my smooth lead tone.

I always liked rare or strange amp pieces, and that's what's so cool about what you're doing Kevlar. You're finding your own tone from pieces that often are different from what is done today. I don't regret spending a single cent on my Fargen Epic 30 DC though, and I'd be hard pressed to find many amplifiers that surpass it for its versatility and tone. If nobody else ever tries one, that's better for me, because I'll stand out. I'm sure that's the way it is with your stuff. I'm shocked you found a Gibson Mercury for so cheap, I've always liked Gibson's amps (really dug the Goldtone series).

One instance in which paying extra makes a difference is the Celestion Alnico Blue and Eminence Red Fang. The Red Fang is supposed to duplicate the Alnico Blue at less than half the cost, but it doesn't get that complexity and richness that the Celestion offers, so to the right person (aka, me), I'd rather shell out the extra money to get what I really want rather than settling for something that doesn't work as well. I'm happy to see Eminence rocking Celestion with speakers like the Governor and Private Jack though.

 

[kevlar3000]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

There definitely are exceptions to be found, but blatant comments like "this will destroy any boutique amp" can't possibly be entirely accurate. I agree that there are vintage pieces that sound as good as stuff much more expensive. I put my SF Vibrolux Reverb against a Two Rock Onyx and the leads were very similar, both very smooth, organic and rich, except a huge price difference However, I also realize that there are amps like Fuchs ODS that could very well blow away my smooth lead tone.

I always liked rare or strange amp pieces, and that's what's so cool about what you're doing Kevlar. You're finding your own tone from pieces that often are different from what is done today. I don't regret spending a single cent on my Fargen Epic 30 DC though, and I'd be hard pressed to find many amplifiers that surpass it for its versatility and tone. If nobody else ever tries one, that's better for me, because I'll stand out. I'm sure that's the way it is with your stuff. I'm shocked you found a Gibson Mercury for so cheap, I've always liked Gibson's amps (really dug the Goldtone series).

One instance in which paying extra makes a difference is the Celestion Alnico Blue and Eminence Red Fang. The Red Fang is supposed to duplicate the Alnico Blue at less than half the cost, but it doesn't get that complexity and richness that the Celestion offers, so to the right person (aka, me), I'd rather shell out the extra money to get what I really want rather than settling for something that doesn't work as well. I'm happy to see Eminence rocking Celestion with speakers like the Governor and Private Jack though.

It's pretty crazy but I got a Gibson Mercury head and matching trapezoid cab in 9 out of 10 condition for 285.00 ( they only made 400 and some of those amps) They put a couple caps on the power tubes to keep those amps from breaking up which is why they got the bad tone rep. I clipped those and changed a couple caps and that amp is a monster. Once I get my recorder back in hand I will toss up some clips.

 

[Buckeyedog]

Re: You Get What You Pay For. Every Step of the Way.

Kevlar, I totally agree about the new Emi line. I've got two Governors and I love them. No more celestions for me. My 4x12 has 2 g12h's and 2 V30's and I've been thinking about getting some private jacks to start and replace the V30's and see how that sounds. Any you are lucky that you know a guy that knows tone and amps and now you can find those gems. Very cool.