Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Much less at an old wrinkly Scandinavian senior citizen???
Much less at an old wrinkly Scandinavian senior citizen???
You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
- Thread starter stratguy23
- Start date
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Which direction we referring to, LP-like superstrat bodies, or Superstrat-like LP bodies??
Which direction we referring to, LP-like superstrat bodies, or Superstrat-like LP bodies??
Jacew
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Would be rather pointless... As you said, SG's sound different than LP's. Why exactly is hardly relevant.
What makes you think it's due to the neck joint specifically? I mean, instead entirely different body structure...?
Would be rather pointless... As you said, SG's sound different than LP's. Why exactly is hardly relevant.
What makes you think it's due to the neck joint specifically? I mean, instead entirely different body structure...?
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
They're wholly different in a few aspects.....the body is thinner than the mahogany section of the LP. The shape is different, there is no maple cap, the body/neck join is at a different fret making for a longer 'unsupported neck shaft, there are 2 cutaways rather than 1 meaning the neck has no body bulk supporting it on either side, and the glued part of the neck is shorter/thinner.
All of these make the SG what it is.
They're wholly different in a few aspects.....the body is thinner than the mahogany section of the LP. The shape is different, there is no maple cap, the body/neck join is at a different fret making for a longer 'unsupported neck shaft, there are 2 cutaways rather than 1 meaning the neck has no body bulk supporting it on either side, and the glued part of the neck is shorter/thinner.
All of these make the SG what it is.
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Curious thing about Leo though...
His early designs through the mid-'60s are regarded as timeless, yet his later work with Music Man, and then G&L does not have nearly the acceptance of his earlier work. There's but a handful of players clued into his later guitars. Many don't appreciate the sleek body of the original Sabre or its futuristic preamp. They don't know the history of G&L. The MFD pickups, the Dual Fulcrum Vibrato and the Saddle Lock bridges...these were upgraded designs on the guitars that Leo said were the best he ever built. Yet guys continue to buy "Fender" branded guitars for the mere name on the headstock.
Was Leo REALLY a genius? Or was he just the right guy at the right time?
And perhaps time just passed him by?
Bill
Curious thing about Leo though...
His early designs through the mid-'60s are regarded as timeless, yet his later work with Music Man, and then G&L does not have nearly the acceptance of his earlier work. There's but a handful of players clued into his later guitars. Many don't appreciate the sleek body of the original Sabre or its futuristic preamp. They don't know the history of G&L. The MFD pickups, the Dual Fulcrum Vibrato and the Saddle Lock bridges...these were upgraded designs on the guitars that Leo said were the best he ever built. Yet guys continue to buy "Fender" branded guitars for the mere name on the headstock.
Was Leo REALLY a genius? Or was he just the right guy at the right time?
And perhaps time just passed him by?
Bill
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
A lot of things that are classed as 'better' aren't better for the reasons guitar players want them to be.
The low wind high magnet strength pickups like actives, Gibson Tarbacks, Lawrence pickups and actives like EMG give more even frequency response and perhaps more accurately transfer the tone/signal of the strings. But that is often not what guitar players are after. A HiFi amp has been tried by a few people and I don't know of anyone yet who has liked the outcome.
Same as some of the hardware changes. You 'fix' one issue and in doing so change something else as a result.
The issue is that the whole idea of great guitar tone for a good majority of players resides in the 'inferior' nature of the 50's type construction details. Whether it be tubes, the tonal shift of the vintage pickup design, or the poor metal purity of the day.....all of these aspects contribute to an outcome that is revered.
So the improvements in the amp circuits, the more consistent pickup winds and component parts, wood choices, etc etc all played their part.
A lot of things that are classed as 'better' aren't better for the reasons guitar players want them to be.
The low wind high magnet strength pickups like actives, Gibson Tarbacks, Lawrence pickups and actives like EMG give more even frequency response and perhaps more accurately transfer the tone/signal of the strings. But that is often not what guitar players are after. A HiFi amp has been tried by a few people and I don't know of anyone yet who has liked the outcome.
Same as some of the hardware changes. You 'fix' one issue and in doing so change something else as a result.
The issue is that the whole idea of great guitar tone for a good majority of players resides in the 'inferior' nature of the 50's type construction details. Whether it be tubes, the tonal shift of the vintage pickup design, or the poor metal purity of the day.....all of these aspects contribute to an outcome that is revered.
So the improvements in the amp circuits, the more consistent pickup winds and component parts, wood choices, etc etc all played their part.
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
I think the reason guitarists like old stuff is because of the nature of creativity.
Hear me out... try this thought experiment.
Alright, I want you to create a fictional being, a monster of sorts, that is completely original. Do it, and draw a quick picture of it.
What does it look like? Do it have an eye/eyes... something to see with? A mouth? Teeth maybe? Does it have legs or arms? Skin/fur/scales? Does it look like an amalgamation of several animals?
It's actually incredibly difficult to do this task and to come up with something that is NOT derivative. You see it even in real examples of this... a dragon is just a cross between a lizard and a bird, a minotaur is a cross between a bull and a man, a centaur is a cross between a horse and a man. Even the popular conceptual of aliens, the little grey men with faces that are more or less just like ours (two eyes, nose, mouth, etc).
Most creativity is derivative. When we see innovation, it is usually a co-incidence. Example: The emergence of distortion was not some guy going, "You know what would sound cool... this sound", instead, it was just people needing to turn amps up loud to be heard and they became overdriven. Even the emergence of the electric guitar was a practical thing and not creative. Every style of music in the last 1000 years has been a modification of previous styles, rather than something new.
So what's the first thing someone does when they want a heavy tone? They do what other people did who produced heavy tones they like. What does someone do when they need a cool clean sound? They do what their heroes did for clean sound. We copy. Even unconsciously... we might not buy signature gear but there's a reason why we gravitate towards fender amps and strats/teles for clean tones and humbuckers/marshalls for dirt... it's because our heroes did and we do not think in an original way when trying to create something new.
This is also why it's so hard for new producers to enter the market. What is the number one thing a new builder can do to get people's attention... to make them aware that actually, this new product can do these things too? That's right... get one of your guitar heroes to play it. See; Mesa Boogie.
Honestly, if Clapton, Page, Beck, etc... started playing multiscale guitars with active pickups and transposing tremolos, made out of space-age materials... then everyone would start believing that those designs were optimal.
The next big innovation in guitar design will be due to engineering necessity, not the open-mindedness of guitarists. After all, didn't Fender design only come about because Leo wanted a way to cheaply produce and assemble guitars?
I think the reason guitarists like old stuff is because of the nature of creativity.
Hear me out... try this thought experiment.
Alright, I want you to create a fictional being, a monster of sorts, that is completely original. Do it, and draw a quick picture of it.
What does it look like? Do it have an eye/eyes... something to see with? A mouth? Teeth maybe? Does it have legs or arms? Skin/fur/scales? Does it look like an amalgamation of several animals?
It's actually incredibly difficult to do this task and to come up with something that is NOT derivative. You see it even in real examples of this... a dragon is just a cross between a lizard and a bird, a minotaur is a cross between a bull and a man, a centaur is a cross between a horse and a man. Even the popular conceptual of aliens, the little grey men with faces that are more or less just like ours (two eyes, nose, mouth, etc).
Most creativity is derivative. When we see innovation, it is usually a co-incidence. Example: The emergence of distortion was not some guy going, "You know what would sound cool... this sound", instead, it was just people needing to turn amps up loud to be heard and they became overdriven. Even the emergence of the electric guitar was a practical thing and not creative. Every style of music in the last 1000 years has been a modification of previous styles, rather than something new.
So what's the first thing someone does when they want a heavy tone? They do what other people did who produced heavy tones they like. What does someone do when they need a cool clean sound? They do what their heroes did for clean sound. We copy. Even unconsciously... we might not buy signature gear but there's a reason why we gravitate towards fender amps and strats/teles for clean tones and humbuckers/marshalls for dirt... it's because our heroes did and we do not think in an original way when trying to create something new.
This is also why it's so hard for new producers to enter the market. What is the number one thing a new builder can do to get people's attention... to make them aware that actually, this new product can do these things too? That's right... get one of your guitar heroes to play it. See; Mesa Boogie.
Honestly, if Clapton, Page, Beck, etc... started playing multiscale guitars with active pickups and transposing tremolos, made out of space-age materials... then everyone would start believing that those designs were optimal.
The next big innovation in guitar design will be due to engineering necessity, not the open-mindedness of guitarists. After all, didn't Fender design only come about because Leo wanted a way to cheaply produce and assemble guitars?
Last edited:
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Maybe, but Page also played a B-Bender Tele, a Silvertone and a Theremin and the world of musicians didn't jump all over them as cutting edge, creative, optimal instruments to have. His most recent incarnation of at least one of his Les Pauls has the complex, 'anything goes' wiring, but few guys put all that in their Les Paul. There wasn't a surge in synth purchases when synths showed up on Zeppelin records. Beck moved from Les Pauls to Strats with noiseless pickups and special nut and neck but his sig Strat seems to be one of the lower-selling sig Strats.
It's not as simple as them just using it and it being new. It's that the music people liked most was made on particular instruments and those are the ones that stick.
Maybe, but Page also played a B-Bender Tele, a Silvertone and a Theremin and the world of musicians didn't jump all over them as cutting edge, creative, optimal instruments to have. His most recent incarnation of at least one of his Les Pauls has the complex, 'anything goes' wiring, but few guys put all that in their Les Paul. There wasn't a surge in synth purchases when synths showed up on Zeppelin records. Beck moved from Les Pauls to Strats with noiseless pickups and special nut and neck but his sig Strat seems to be one of the lower-selling sig Strats.
It's not as simple as them just using it and it being new. It's that the music people liked most was made on particular instruments and those are the ones that stick.
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
I don't have to draw anything out. All I have to do is picture a particular ex-girlfriend from about 35 years ago ...
I don't have to draw anything out. All I have to do is picture a particular ex-girlfriend from about 35 years ago ...
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
For the sake of brevity I simplified the idea... but that is essentially what I meant.
If rock stars started making classic albums with new and innovative equipment, then that equipment would be seen as optimal. It's not an alien concept either, it's the whole point of artist endorsements and so on.
I'm sure you could make a totally jamming classic rock rock album with a Parker Fly and Strandberg... but until someone of equal renown to the guitar greats of old does so, everyone will continue to think that copying the traditional blueprint is the way to go.
For the sake of brevity I simplified the idea... but that is essentially what I meant.
If rock stars started making classic albums with new and innovative equipment, then that equipment would be seen as optimal. It's not an alien concept either, it's the whole point of artist endorsements and so on.
I'm sure you could make a totally jamming classic rock rock album with a Parker Fly and Strandberg... but until someone of equal renown to the guitar greats of old does so, everyone will continue to think that copying the traditional blueprint is the way to go.
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Haha, does the image have skin or scales? Is it an amalgamation of other animals?
haha. I've got some exes that would be a cross between a snake and a cockroach.
Haha, does the image have skin or scales? Is it an amalgamation of other animals?
haha. I've got some exes that would be a cross between a snake and a cockroach.
NeedForPower
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
My experience has been that the best players are only marginally concerned with their gear, they focus on their art. Interviews with Hendrix, Clapton, Knopfler and Beck clearly demonstrate this, Page is the exception in his interest in gear but then after Led Zep where is Page? Joe B. is another exception but his interest seems more as a collector than a tone freak. His video shows how he can get soup to notes tone out of a Les Paul with just the four pots is an example.
My experience has been that the best players are only marginally concerned with their gear, they focus on their art. Interviews with Hendrix, Clapton, Knopfler and Beck clearly demonstrate this, Page is the exception in his interest in gear but then after Led Zep where is Page? Joe B. is another exception but his interest seems more as a collector than a tone freak. His video shows how he can get soup to notes tone out of a Les Paul with just the four pots is an example.
Jacew
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Well, I probably misunderstood you earlier post. You were talking about neck joint without any mention about entirely different body structure so...
Well, I probably misunderstood you earlier post. You were talking about neck joint without any mention about entirely different body structure so...
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
I don't know about that: Steve Morse is really particular. So was Allan Holdsworth. So is Al Di Meola. Lots of excellent players are as geeky gear-wise as we are.
I don't know about that: Steve Morse is really particular. So was Allan Holdsworth. So is Al Di Meola. Lots of excellent players are as geeky gear-wise as we are.
NeedForPower
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
You are correct, I overstated my opinion. You can add Eric Johnson and Frank Zappa to the long list of players who are very particular about their gear. I guess it just get's back to the old issue of getting so wrapped up in gear you lose sight of playing being the primary objective or not. Certainly it is a gainful pass time to explore the tonal frontier.
You are correct, I overstated my opinion. You can add Eric Johnson and Frank Zappa to the long list of players who are very particular about their gear. I guess it just get's back to the old issue of getting so wrapped up in gear you lose sight of playing being the primary objective or not. Certainly it is a gainful pass time to explore the tonal frontier.
LLL
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Well stated and very true; even though there are some forum members here and elsewhere who incorrectly and egotistically claim they figured out their own guitar playing style or tone completely on their own.
Influences - everybody's got them; whether they admit it or not.
Well stated and very true; even though there are some forum members here and elsewhere who incorrectly and egotistically claim they figured out their own guitar playing style or tone completely on their own.
Influences - everybody's got them; whether they admit it or not.
LLL
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
I can't agree with this. Being a serious researcher of various big-name guitarists' tones (among other things), I've found every one of them to be very serious about their guitar tone. And a lot of them, when interviewed, use obfuscation or play ignorant so they don't reveal anything beyond the basics. Off the top of my head, Billy Gibbons and EVH come to mind.
If guitar tone is a unique identifier (it can be), it can be a "brand". No one who is business-savvy gives up their brand secrets.
Furthermore, if "you're" serious about something, "you're" going to study it & work it to the best of your capability.
I can't agree with this. Being a serious researcher of various big-name guitarists' tones (among other things), I've found every one of them to be very serious about their guitar tone. And a lot of them, when interviewed, use obfuscation or play ignorant so they don't reveal anything beyond the basics. Off the top of my head, Billy Gibbons and EVH come to mind.
If guitar tone is a unique identifier (it can be), it can be a "brand". No one who is business-savvy gives up their brand secrets.
Furthermore, if "you're" serious about something, "you're" going to study it & work it to the best of your capability.
stratguy23
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
I think that's happening with the current wave of djent/"progressive" metal musicians, who tend to have a younger audience. Kids these days don't have Clapton and Page as their idols - they're players like Misha Mansoor and Tosin Abasi. They're growing up with 7 and 8 string guitars that are often multi-scale, and Axe-Fx and Kemper amps. That's *their* blueprint, in the way that LPs and Marshalls were the blueprint for previous generations.
I remember when Hipshot mainly known for xtender tuning keys. Now the djent/progressive metal scene has made Hipshot out to be "hip" and desirable in the way that old-schoolers would think of Grover tuners.
I think that's happening with the current wave of djent/"progressive" metal musicians, who tend to have a younger audience. Kids these days don't have Clapton and Page as their idols - they're players like Misha Mansoor and Tosin Abasi. They're growing up with 7 and 8 string guitars that are often multi-scale, and Axe-Fx and Kemper amps. That's *their* blueprint, in the way that LPs and Marshalls were the blueprint for previous generations.
I remember when Hipshot mainly known for xtender tuning keys. Now the djent/progressive metal scene has made Hipshot out to be "hip" and desirable in the way that old-schoolers would think of Grover tuners.
Red_Label
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
I saw Yngwie in Vegas last Wednesday. Was up against the barrier right in front of him all night. He was having some technical issues that he and his tech were fighting all night. I could tell that he was more than a little distracted... but he was still frigging amazing and it was great to finally see my guitar idol throughout the second half of the 80s and early 90s.
[/url][/IMG]
BTW... he seriously needs a few more Marshalls!!!
I saw Yngwie in Vegas last Wednesday. Was up against the barrier right in front of him all night. He was having some technical issues that he and his tech were fighting all night. I could tell that he was more than a little distracted... but he was still frigging amazing and it was great to finally see my guitar idol throughout the second half of the 80s and early 90s.
BTW... he seriously needs a few more Marshalls!!!
Last edited:
Dusty.Rhoads
New member
Re: You gotta hand it to Leo Fender
Being marginally concerned about gear and being serious about their tone are not mutually exclusive so it is difficult to see what you can't agree with.
The notion that guitarists have tone secrets seems a little far fetched. They travel with a group of people who know exactly what their rig consists of. They perform in front of crowds that can see their rig in general terms. Are there players that use disguised guitars, camouflaged pedals and amps?
I would be willing to wager that there are tens of thousands of players and techs that once hearing a "tone" can find a way to emulate it in short order. Not, mind you, down to the o scope level but definitely well enough for an excellent cover. Exceptions to this are obviously with players like Beck and Knopfler where touch comes into play.
Being marginally concerned about gear and being serious about their tone are not mutually exclusive so it is difficult to see what you can't agree with.
The notion that guitarists have tone secrets seems a little far fetched. They travel with a group of people who know exactly what their rig consists of. They perform in front of crowds that can see their rig in general terms. Are there players that use disguised guitars, camouflaged pedals and amps?
I would be willing to wager that there are tens of thousands of players and techs that once hearing a "tone" can find a way to emulate it in short order. Not, mind you, down to the o scope level but definitely well enough for an excellent cover. Exceptions to this are obviously with players like Beck and Knopfler where touch comes into play.
Similar threads
