A cab size discussion...

[misterwhizzy]

I'm going to pick two speakers for this thought experiment; the specific models are arbitrary.

Which would make a bigger difference in tone? Changing the size of the cabinet in which the speakers are mounted, or changing the speakers themselves?

My intuition is that replacing Vintage 30s in a 1936 with Greenbacks would make more of a tonal difference than putting those same V30s in an Orange PPC212, for example. Have you ever done such an experiment? With what observations?

[Cynical]

Cab dimensions make a *huge* difference -- Lasse Lammert's cab shootout is instructive on this, a lot of the V30 cabs sound totally different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhb4...Q8ERXuBsQK7rnM

[jeremy]

cab size makes a difference, but id say going from a v30 to a g12m would make a bigger difference

[Rex_Rocker]

Just to add to the discussion, increasing cabinet size not only changes low-end response, but all frequencies.

Overall, bigger cabs sound broader and more open with airier highs and deeper lows.

You can check out the comparisons there are floating around between Recto and Stiletto cabs. Recto cabs push the low-end lower and the high-end higher compared to Stilettos. If anything, I'd say Stiletto cabs sound fatter and darker, honestly. But IMO, Recto cabs are much less stuffy, more open, and more controlled by comparison.

Also, 16 ohm vs 8 ohm versions of the same speaker sound almost as different between each other as different speaker types.

[Inflames626]

My input is way too vague to be useful here, but I heard a Marshall 1960A cab side by side with a Mesa Triple Rec cab. (Friend of mine was a doctor's daughter who played guitar herself and later became a doctor--she had a lot of cool toys, let's say.)

I thought I would prefer the Rec cab because it would sound more modern, but it sounded woofy and kind of flabby. The 1960A sounded tighter. It had less low end but more mids.

Both cabs have their place, and I think any decent studio should have both cabs. But if forced to pick one I'd go Marshall.

I don't know what was loaded into them, only that the Marshall was somewhat smaller than the Recto cab. Most people know Recto cabs are deliberately oversized.

Edit: in the event larger cabs are heavier and more difficult to transport, I don't think the tone to weight/size sacrifice is worth it.

[Rex_Rocker]

I thought I would prefer the Rec cab because it would sound more modern, but it sounded woofy and kind of flabby. The 1960A sounded tighter. It had less low end but more mids.

I actually find that to be the opposite of my experience.

The Marshall 1960V (with the V30's) is somewhat scooped compared to the Recto cab which is all aobut mids, IME. The Marshall V30 in itself is more scooped compared to the Mesa V30. Then the Marshall is 16 ohms which is more scooped compared to the 8 ohm speakers in the Recto.

The Recto is oversized, though, so maybe in the room it's coming across as "broader". IME, the Marshall being more scooped was probably more to do with the speakers themselves.

Then if you take into account the T-75 in the regular 1960's is even more scooped than the Marhall Vintage (the Marshall-branded V30), there's that.

Then again, the Marshall's baffle is not sealed, so the low-end is both thinner and looser (granted the speakers are the same), especially standing in the room.

However, I'm not saying your experience is wrong. Because different speakers from different years do sound different. There was a video floating around about how different V30's from the early 2000's compare to V30's from the 2010's. Different cabs from different years in the Marshall world are made differently as well. Plus there's speaker break in to take into account as well.

But as apples to apples as I've experienced, both the 1960 and the 1960V have been more scooped than the Recto cab. I actually prefer the 1960AV in the room compared to the Recto cab, personally. But the Recto cab tends to record better, IME, just as long as you keep those low-mids in check.

[Inflames626]

I always considered the 1960 to be a cab for mid forward, Marshall crunch, and a Recto cab to be a big cab for a chunky, scooped mids, modern (90s-00s) sound.

Of course there's a lot more to it when speakers and such are involved. But I always found the Mesa's oversized cab to be bulky and inconvenient.

I think it would probably take two cabs from a classic period (say a 1991 1960 with V30s vs. a 1991 Recto cab with V30s) to tell the difference.

Software seems to emulate Recto cabs as being scooped and having more low end and highs than a 1960. Then again when I use Pod Farm I tend to use it with G12-75s or V30s mixed. I don't like one over the other. They kind of offset each other.

I really can't say without testing out a bunch of speakers, and even then I'd prefer a baseline--not "Mesa's V30" vs. "Marshall's V30." My guess is they will adjust those speakers based on cab dimensions anyway, so it's hard to separate them. They'll probably be wired series/parallel or a mix based on what the designers want, as well.

[Rex_Rocker]

I always considered the 1960 to be a cab for mid forward, Marshall crunch, and a Recto cab to be a big cab for a chunky, scooped mids, modern (90s-00s) sound.

Of course there's a lot more to it when speakers and such are involved. But I always found the Mesa's oversized cab to be bulky and inconvenient.

I think it would probably take two cabs from a classic period (say a 1991 1960 with V30s vs. a 1991 Recto cab with V30s) to tell the difference.

Software seems to emulate Recto cabs as being scooped and having more low end and highs than a 1960. Then again when I use Pod Farm I tend to use it with G12-75s or V30s mixed. I don't like one over the other. They kind of offset each other.

I really can't say without testing out a bunch of speakers, and even then I'd prefer a baseline--not "Mesa's V30" vs. "Marshall's V30." My guess is they will adjust those speakers based on cab dimensions anyway, so it's hard to separate them. They'll probably be wired series/parallel or a mix based on what the designers want, as well.

I forgot how the cabs on POD Farm sounded. It's been ages since my POD XT broke down, so I wasn't able to retrieve my POD Farm license. I do remember the Recto cab on POD Farm being very dark and low-mid heavy compared to the Marshall Vintage or the Marshall with 75's. Then again, in reality, Recto cabs aren't THAT dark. At least not if you compare them to a Marshall cab from the same year, as you were suggesting.

I don't think they adjust the speakers based on the cabs they're going in more than how the manufacturer designer wants them to sound building them to a price point. Different people have different ideas on how cabs should sound to be "balanced".

I do think that if you dropped the exact same set of speakers on both cabs, the Recto cab would sound broader/bigger than the Marshall cab, but also with a punchier more controlled low-end, so not "looser". Just bigger/broader. So yeah, more scooped if you're going from just the cab itself. But the speakers Marshall puts in there are usually more scooped IME. Their amps, after all, are all very mid-forward, and kinda lean in the lows (compared to a Mesa Recto).

I'm trying to find a youtube clip that kinda agrees with my experience.

[Inflames626]

The benefit I'm finding to a more modern cab like a Randall or Mesa is the ability to handle more wattage.

Didn't there used to be Mark cabs that were voiced maybe a bit more like Marshalls? I always thought Marks were more mid forward than Rectos.

Mesa says this about their V30:
"Despite its full mid-range response, this speaker is often the choice of players looking for a bit of mid-scoop, as its low and high-frequency response can be accentuated when in an enclosure."

So I would think they are coming at it from both ends--they want a certain sound so they design the cab to get that sound and also a speaker that will get that sound, as opposed to designing a cab and then they put whatever speakers are on offer in it. For example, I always thought a V30 was a V30 and not tailored to a company's expectations.

People also don't seem to talk very much about the crossovers in the cabs.

https://mesaboogie.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/217846758-What-cabinet-and-speakers-are-best-suited-for-my-amplifier-

[Rex_Rocker]

The benefit I'm finding to a more modern cab like a Randall or Mesa is the ability to handle more wattage.

Didn't there used to be Mark cabs that were voiced maybe a bit more like Marshalls? I always thought Marks were more mid forward than Rectos.

Mesa says this about their V30:
"Despite its full mid-range response, this speaker is often the choice of players looking for a bit of mid-scoop, as its low and high-frequency response can be accentuated when in an enclosure."

So I would think they are coming at it from both ends--they want a certain sound so they design the cab to get that sound and also a speaker that will get that sound, as opposed to designing a cab and then they put whatever speakers are on offer in it. For example, I always thought a V30 was a V30 and not tailored to a company's expectations.

People also don't seem to talk very much about the crossovers in the cabs.

It's still not clear to me wether the Mesa V30 is actually a thing or not. Their V30's do have a different model number and are made in the UK rather than the standard Chinese V30's. The Marshall V30 is not actually called V30, but Marshall Vintage, and it has a silver frame and a different label (different model number as well).

What do you mean crossovers? As in actually splitting the bass and the treble in the cabs? I don't think they do that on the Recto cabs, at least. The way they're wired, every speaker sees the same signal.

People also don't give V30's enough credit for how chunky they are, really. I had a pair that sounded WAY fatter in the lows than the Creamback H-75's I had in my cab at the same time at some point. Then again, T-75's were the fattest in the lows I ever had in that cab (the cab came stock with T-75's). I quickly got rid of them, as I didn't like the sound of them, TBH.

[Inflames626]

In a bass cab by crossover I'd mean splitting the lows and highs, or in a rig like Dime's where the highs go to a 4x12 and the lows to a 2x15. By crossover I mean the electronics in the back of a cab where the cables plug in and where the speaker wires come from. I assume every company tweaks those a certain way.

I was surprised to see only Marshall's 1987 (model number, not year) Silver Jubilee cab appeared to have 4 V30s. I thought their 1960s would have them standard and be made in England.

One advantage to parallel is if a speaker dies you don't lose them all. I think my Carvin cabs are in parallel because one died but the others kept on going. One may need to wire in series to increase resistance though. But I don't like the idea of a signal going through speakers in series. Seems like the last speaker in the chain would get bad tone. Same with cabs. Easier to hook up but I question the tone.

I may have had some Greenbacks I actually liked in Pod Farm as well, and I considered those super vintage for blues out of small cabs. PF though is its own thing--like the Stone Age compared to Neural DSP and other stuff. Kind of like with TRacks, I just like the color of PF sound, even as old as it is.

[jeremy]

a crossover is a specific device. there is no crossover in 90%+ of guitar cabs. in bass cabs, there are often a crossover to send the highs to a tweeter and the mids and lows to the main speakers.

guitar cabs are wired different ways as you mention. series, parallel, series/parallel, parallel/series. none of those typically involve a crossover or anything fancy. series vs parallel do sound different, but i dont know if the individual speakers sound different when wired series

[Rex_Rocker]

I was surprised to see only Marshall's 1987 (model number, not year) Silver Jubilee cab appeared to have 4 V30s. I thought their 1960s would have them standard and be made in England.

One advantage to parallel is if a speaker dies you don't lose them all. I think my Carvin cabs are in parallel because one died but the others kept on going. One may need to wire in series to increase resistance though. But I don't like the idea of a signal going through speakers in series. Seems like the last speaker in the chain would get bad tone. Same with cabs. Easier to hook up but I question the tone.

I may have had some Greenbacks I actually liked in Pod Farm as well, and I considered those super vintage for blues out of small cabs. PF though is its own thing--like the Stone Age compared to Neural DSP and other stuff. Kind of like with TRacks, I just like the color of PF sound, even as old as it is.

Nowadays, the "standard" 1960 cab comes with T-75. It's been like that since the days of the JCM800, I believe. The OG Jubilee cab came loaded with 8 ohm Marshall Vintage speakers. 8 ohms is kind of a rarity on Marshall 4x12's. There were also some Jubilee cabs with T-75's and 65's, AFAIK. Nowadays, they do have the 1960V series which comes with the Marshall Vintage speakers, but they're 16 ohms.

Yeah, parallel-series vs. series-parallel does sound different too. I've never looked into that deeper, TBH. I always just wired my cab with the stock configuration. I should've looked into it.

Greenbacks are kind of hard to represent on IR's or static cab sims. They get the EQ curve right, but they also take different characteristics depending on how loud you're running them since their power handling is so low compared to modern offerings. I mean, every speaker does that to an extent, but GB's are kinda notorious for doing so more exaggerated.

I've discussed with other forum members how GB's don't chug. Mine chugged fine. They're my favorite in-the-room speaker, TBH. Mine never "farted out" either. They sounded grity/dirty, but they always handled volume well. Keep in mind, "GB" is also a very broad term. They have like 734893749379437943 variations that all have green plastic covers on the magnet. My favorite were the EVH's (not really green) or the plain old Classic-series GB reissues which are more like the 70's blackbacks.

[Inflames626]

a crossover is a specific device. there is no crossover in 90%+ of guitar cabs. in bass cabs, there are often a crossover to send the highs to a tweeter and the mids and lows to the main speakers.

guitar cabs are wired different ways as you mention. series, parallel, series/parallel, parallel/series. none of those typically involve a crossover or anything fancy. series vs parallel do sound different, but i dont know if the individual speakers sound different when wired series

Thanks jeremy. What do you call the electronics in the back of a cab then so I can use a more specific term?

[Inflames626]

Nowadays, the "standard" 1960 cab comes with T-75. It's been like that since the days of the JCM800, I believe. The OG Jubilee cab came loaded with 8 ohm Marshall Vintage speakers. 8 ohms is kind of a rarity on Marshall 4x12's. There were also some Jubilee cabs with T-75's and 65's, AFAIK. Nowadays, they do have the 1960V series which comes with the Marshall Vintage speakers, but they're 16 ohms.

Yeah, parallel-series vs. series-parallel does sound different too. I've never looked into that deeper, TBH. I always just wired my cab with the stock configuration. I should've looked into it.

Greenbacks are kind of hard to represent on IR's or static cab sims. They get the EQ curve right, but they also take different characteristics depending on how loud you're running them since their power handling is so low compared to modern offerings. I mean, every speaker does that to an extent, but GB's are kinda notorious for doing so more exaggerated.

I've discussed with other forum members how GB's don't chug. Mine chugged fine. They're my favorite in-the-room speaker, TBH. Mine never "farted out" either. They sounded grity/dirty, but they always handled volume well. Keep in mind, "GB" is also a very broad term. They have like 734893749379437943 variations that all have green plastic covers on the magnet. My favorite were the EVH's (not really green) or the plain old Classic-series GB reissues which are more like the 70's blackbacks.

I thought maybe they went to the 75s when the DSL/TSL 2000 came out and Marshall was trying to compete with Mesa for a truly high gain sound out of the box instead of a front end boosted with a pedal.