Tell me about each Jackson “level”...

[Aceman]

. Now it's just overpriced Indonesian rubbish with convoluted product lines for beginners and collectors.

Says you. Do you even riff?

[dave74]

IMO Jackson should have followed the esp/ltd model, keeping the Jackson logo for top-notch guitars only.

[Mincer]

IMO Jackson should have followed the esp/ltd model, keeping the Jackson logo for top-notch guitars only.

Wasn't that how they did Jackson & Charvel a long time ago?

[dave74]

Wasn't that how they did Jackson & Charvel a long time ago?

Late 80s early 90s I think, but then came the Charvettes lol.
The old logo Charvel stuff was great and MIJ like the Jackson professionals.

[Adieu]

Well that's not exactly true... The Japanese models also had a bunch of differently spec'd lines from JS to Professional Pro, the Grover Jackson and Jackson Stars line for Japanese market only etc. While I agree that they are tainting their reputation with some of the lower end stuff, it's not like they're the only ones doing it... Companies are trying to maximize their income and we , the buyers make their business strategies work.

Yeah, they still have some cool players on their roster besides those two: Ellefson, Friedman, Jeff Loomis, Dave Davidson, Christian Andreu, Adrian Smith, Mick Thomson, Gus G, Phil Demmel, Phil Collen, Brandon Ellis... I gues at least some of them can be considered major artist.

AFAIK, Grover Jackson and Jackson Stars weren't "real" per se -- just made in the same factory that used to make official Jacksons.

After Jackson ended a contract with a Japanese contract manufacturer, apparently on bad terms, that place decided to use some Japanese trademark loophole (or perhaps just judicial preference for locals and/or corruption) to trademark these two names and just keep making Jacksons anyway...without Jackson involved.

[Aceman]

Its easy to figure out your brand levels assuming things never change....but they do.

I don't like the LTD/ESP deal. LTD's are getting too good. Diffuses the ESP brand, IMO.

Your main brand goes down, you use the main name to boost, your low end brand goes up, you elevate your main brand, etc....

Fender has it right IMO: Squire, MIM, and Fender USA. Three clear levels. ~300, 600, 900+ price points roughly, and then stupid expensive. Definitively better stuff.
- A Squire works, for cheap, and may even work well at the high end
- A MIM is all the fender you need and highly variable + classic stuff
- The USA gets solid parts, reps, and can go as high as you want.

See Gibson for how to get it wrong:
- Epi stops ~4-500
- No 800-900 line, or it is lame crap from Gibson
- Decent Gibson stuff starts showing up around $2500

No idea what Jackson's MO is these days. Just know the JS32 necks are awesome.

[nexion218]

AFAIK, Grover Jackson and Jackson Stars weren't "real" per se -- just made in the same factory that used to make official Jacksons.

After Jackson ended a contract with a Japanese contract manufacturer, apparently on bad terms, that place decided to use some Japanese trademark loophole (or perhaps just judicial preference for locals and/or corruption) to trademark these two names and just keep making Jacksons anyway...without Jackson involved.

Nope. The Japanese trademark issue was there though: there was already a trademarked Jackson brand and for the models that were Asian market exclusives, they slapped on the Grover and Stars words not to get in legal trouble. They even made some Grover Jackson branded stuff in the CS in USA.
So those were definitely "real" Jacksons. The only Jackson not 8nvolved in those was Grover, the man himself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grov...n_Asian_market

[NegativeEase]

In my experience, if you buy brands with the proper QC -it doesn't matter where they are made -every area has decades of skilled labor and the right machines.

You would not be able to tell by feel, playability an Indonesian made G&L or Gretsch from an American made with the same appointments.

And if the same loading, not the sounds either.

It's all about the QC process.

[alex1fly]

Its easy to figure out your brand levels assuming things never change....but they do.

I don't like the LTD/ESP deal. LTD's are getting too good. Diffuses the ESP brand, IMO.

Your main brand goes down, you use the main name to boost, your low end brand goes up, you elevate your main brand, etc....

Fender has it right IMO: Squire, MIM, and Fender USA. Three clear levels. ~300, 600, 900+ price points roughly, and then stupid expensive. Definitively better stuff.
- A Squire works, for cheap, and may even work well at the high end
- A MIM is all the fender you need and highly variable + classic stuff
- The USA gets solid parts, reps, and can go as high as you want.

See Gibson for how to get it wrong:
- Epi stops ~4-500
- No 800-900 line, or it is lame crap from Gibson
- Decent Gibson stuff starts showing up around $2500

No idea what Jackson's MO is these days. Just know the JS32 necks are awesome.

My 2013 SG tribute was $600 used last year, supposedly retailed for around $1000. Most toneful guitar I've ever owned, and I'm not a collector by any means. So much warmth and beauty, this One-Strat-For-Life-and-SGs-are-ugly guy had to take it home. Changed the way I view the electric guitar. Expectations obviously play a big role in perception of quality. I'd gladly look at the Future Tribute line again if anything happened to my SG. But then I'd also never pay $2000 for any guitar, so ymmv and all that.
Agreed on the MIM and Squier take, pretty happy with mine.

[alex1fly]

Blonde or Orange? They do straight orange as well...

Blonde! Unreal.

[jimzucco]

Considering Jackson's major qc issues, not just from imports, but from the actual custom shop, I'd steer clear. They have a terrible reputation right now and I do not believe they've done anything to fix the issue.

[PFDarkside]

Considering Jackson's major qc issues, not just from imports, but from the actual custom shop, I'd steer clear. They have a terrible reputation right now and I do not believe they've done anything to fix the issue.

Details?

if Jackson, Fender and Gibson all build poor guitars, what does one buy? ESP and Ibanez? Send a check into the ether and hope a small luthier doesn’t disappear?

[weepingminotaur]

Details?

if Jackson, Fender and Gibson all build poor guitars, what does one buy? ESP and Ibanez? Send a check into the ether and hope a small luthier doesn’t disappear?

Plenty of good brands out there. Schecter, Charvel (Fender's best line IMO), LTD, Dean, etc.

Also, I don't think Fender, Jackson, and Gibson build uniformly poor guitars. You just have to be careful about each brand at a particular price point.

[jimzucco]

Details?

if Jackson, Fender and Gibson all build poor guitars, what does one buy? ESP and Ibanez? Send a check into the ether and hope a small luthier doesn’t disappear?

I definitely do not think Fender or Gibson put out poor guitars, and I did not say that Jackson does either. My issue with Jackson is that stuff coming out of their Custom Shop is having QC issues. This, to me, is inexcusable. I have personally played a custom shop Jackson purchased by a good friend that had some disgusting issues. Keep in mind this is a 3500 dollar custom shop model that he waited over a year for. The guitar had a fret job worse than my MIM Fender Player strat. They completely jacked up the binding I guess while finishing the fret edges. Whatever happened, there were multiple gashes in the binding along three consecutive fret edges. There were some serious finish flaws as well, including, strangely, finish over spray on the nut. How that happens beats me since it was a Floyd. This may seem a bit harsh, but seriously we are talking about a guitar that should be a work of art out of the box. I've had issues like this from Gibson too, but never a custom shop. I recently grabbed a brand new Les Paul Studio with serious finish issues - it happens. But not custom shop guitars. Unacceptable

[nexion218]

ESP and Ibanez?

No luck there either. Go to an ESP forum and be shocked at "how much worse their new lineup is compared to my 92 Custom Shop XY model" or at "how inferior the built in Tokyo E-II line is. In fact, those are not even real ESPs, just botched B-stock ESP, which were rebranded because ESP doesn't want ashame itself with that sh!tty quality" blablablablabla.... None of which is quite true of course. I bet Ibanez has the same stuff going, but I was never intereted in them, so havent read about them as much. That being said, CS gaffes are indeed a shame, no matter which brand.

@jimzucco: These things are mass produced. Even the USA ones. And I believe the most expensive part of production is the QC and setup. So the less you pay, the higher the chance for a lemon. It's kinda disturbing, but that's free trade and market economy I guess. Until we keep buying them, they'll keep selling them. And while they're at it, they will try to lower the production cost and raise the MSRP each year.


To me the best strategy is try before you buy, if no can do then chose a place with impeccable return policies and in general lower the expectations for non top of the line stuff. Learning to do good setups can go a long way too and save 2-3 grands. In my experience 1000+ USD guitars can perform just as well after some setup as something for triple it's price. Aesthetics and finishing touches will not be impeccable, but I take a great sounding and playing guitar any day over an impeccable looking one. Sure, both would be great, but I don't earn enough money for that.