Locking nut quality and tuning stability

[ICTGoober]

Why are you so confrontational? Doesn’t it get tiring being so angry and grumpy about everything?

Floyd style locknuts > goofy kahler string locks every time.

EVERY. TIME.

Because so many people are wrong (like you), or don't think (also you).

Floyd locking nuts are diecast, and string heights cannot be adjusted individually. You can get them close by juggling shims under the nut, but due to the lack of precision in the diecasting process, one or two strings will be higher or lower than they should be. You can't grind the top of the nut because then the locking clamp won't fit properly and the string will slip. They are a poor design and poorly manufactured.

Same at the bridge end - the saddles are never the correct height from string to string, and grinding the bottom of the saddle to set the height causes other problems. I've been working on them since they were invented, taken them apart and measured them, and they are a big disappointment. They do not measure correctly. If any Floyd producer could get their manufacturing tolerances in order, it would be a big improvement. Ibanez did the best, making each saddle adjustable for height.

Yes - the popularity of the Floyds can be laid at Edward Van Halen's feet. There is no argument on that. However, in several interviews during the 80's Edward complained about them. His usual quote was, "I hate them, and I don't..." Let's not forget that the first 3 Van Halen albums were made BEFORE Floyd Rose units had been marketed. He got by with a meticulous setup on a Fender vibrato unit and a properly cut and lubricated brass nut, with no locking tuners.

[El Dunco]

Locking tuners to me are a lot like Fender or Wilkinson style vibratos--they're for players who want some mild use of the whammy bar on chords but aren't going to do extreme pulls or make warble effects by slapping the bar. Or they're for players who prefer a fixed bridge but don't want the guitar to come out of tune during transport
.

I replaced the 6 screw trem on my Dean V with a Willinson 2-post and with the included Schaller locking tuners and the properly cut bone nut, I can go as nuts as I can on a Floyd and it never goes out of tune. I slightly recessed it, it doesn’t have quite the same upward range as a Floyd but it’s enough for that particular guitar. With 2 springs it stutters just fine and does full dive-bombs no problem.

I originally planned to put a Floyd in it but being a 3/4 body size, there just wasn’t enough wood for that much routing but the Wilko is the next best thing. I ended up putting the OFR in my Washburn Bantam (again, replacing the 6 screw strat style trem) and it’s a real shred-stick now. It’s what I reach for when I need the higher output and sustain of a bridge bucker lead tone and more whammy action my MIA strat isn’t right for, as comfy as it is.

It was the second guitar I ever owned, wasn’t too expensive )though it’s got decent wood and finish) but with the upgrades (SD Custom in the bridge and the stock singles have a beautiful jazzy tone that must be a fluke so I don’t want to change them) it hangs with my guitars on the pricier end of the spectrum. Even has Seymour’s signature I got from the ‘06 User Group Day on the back, lacquered over so it never comes off.

Here’s the Washburn and Dean respectively.

[eclecticsynergy]

3) A common issue on Floyds--the strings going sharp after locking the nut down--can be fixed by tightening the string retainer on the headstock if you have one. I have a video from Frudua to thank for this: https://youtu.be/JBF3LCQk7zg?t=206

Until now I considered a string retainer to be mostly decorative or there for peace of mind if a string broke above the nut.

I thought tightening the retainer would be a bad thing by putting additional stress on the strings between the nut and headstock. But, it helped the guitar stay in tune the more the retainer was screwed down into the wood. With the retainer screwed in further, the strings stopped going sharp whenever I clamped the locking nut down.

Very interesting - had never heard of that trick.

I've got my old pre-finetuner Floyd sitting around and have been thinking about calling back into service.
It had that problem and usually required loosening and retightening several times on certain strings.
Eventually I got a feel for about how far off each string needed to be before screwing down the pads.

It it was still sort of a pain though. So when Floyd came out with his finetuner one I replaced it right away.
But nowadays some are saying the original non-finetuner version sustains better and sounds fuller.
Thinking about trying mine with a regular neck, no locking nut. I hardly ever divebomb anymore.

The real trick will be finding a body routed for Floyds, but without the recess to accommodate the long tail.
I'm told Warmoth offers that as an option.

Anyway, my thanks to you and Frudua for sharing the vid.

[dave74]

I've always used the string retainer to ensure string contact with the rear of the nut so that when you lock it doesn't press the string sharp,,,,,,but if you don't have a retainer and the headstock does not have enough angle you can just tune the problem string/s a bit flat so that when locking it presses into pitch, or at least very close.

The old Carvin 80's reverse pointed headstocks have that problem fairly bad on the 6th string, but I simply tune just over a quarter-step flat before locking and it presses right into almost perfect pitch, and then you still can fine-tune after locking.

[eclecticsynergy]

I've always used the string retainer to ensure string contact with the rear of the nut so that when you lock it doesn't press the string sharp,,,,,,but if you don't have a retainer and the headstock does not have enough angle you can just tune the problem string/s a bit flat so that when locking it presses into pitch, or at least very close.

That's what I used to do with the original Floyd. Problem was, all strings didn't need exactly the same amount of flatness.
I got better at estimating it over time. Was still glad when finetuners became available though.

[dave74]

That's what I used to do with the original Floyd. Problem was, all strings didn't need exactly the same amount of flatness.
I got better at estimating it over time. Was still glad when finetuners became available though.

I feel lucky to have never experienced a floater without fines.

[ICTGoober]

The first Floyd I ever installed for a client was an early 80's one with no fine tuners. The locking nut was such a POS that when you locked each piece, it would sharpen one string and flatten the other. You had to guess to get the darn thing in tune.

[eclecticsynergy]

The first Floyd I ever installed for a client was an early 80's one with no fine tuners. The locking nut was such a POS that when you locked each piece, it would sharpen one string and flatten the other. You had to guess to get the darn thing in tune.

Yah - not only do they need different amounts of offset, but wound strings behave differently from plain ones.

[JamesPaul]

I feel lucky to have never experienced a floater without fines.

This was another reason I went with the cam (23xx?) Kahlers in the 80's. They had fine tuners on day one.

[ICTGoober]

This was another reason I went with the cam (23xx?) Kahlers in the 80's. They had fine tuners on day one.

The design and machining (no diecasting) of Kahlers is top notch. They do work and feel differently than a Floyd, which is to be expected.

[El Dunco]

The one experience I’ve had with Kahler, if you did a bend, it would return sharp and you had to depress the bar to make it return to pitch. A friend showed me a way around it. But it’s effort. You have to bend the ball end of the string at a 45deg and solder them! He ended up doing some mod on the saddles to try and overcome it too. I’m used to Floyd. I think you kind of start with one or the other and it’s awkward to change. While I didn’t do any rigorous scientific testing, the Kahler seemed to have way less sustain than my similar guitar with a floyd.

[formula73]

Because so many people are wrong (like you), or don't think (also you).

Floyd locking nuts are diecast, and string heights cannot be adjusted individually. You can get them close by juggling shims under the nut, but due to the lack of precision in the diecasting process, one or two strings will be higher or lower than they should be. You can't grind the top of the nut because then the locking clamp won't fit properly and the string will slip. They are a poor design and poorly manufactured.

Same at the bridge end - the saddles are never the correct height from string to string, and grinding the bottom of the saddle to set the height causes other problems. I've been working on them since they were invented, taken them apart and measured them, and they are a big disappointment. They do not measure correctly. If any Floyd producer could get their manufacturing tolerances in order, it would be a big improvement. Ibanez did the best, making each saddle adjustable for height.

Yes - the popularity of the Floyds can be laid at Edward Van Halen's feet. There is no argument on that. However, in several interviews during the 80's Edward complained about them. His usual quote was, "I hate them, and I don't..." Let's not forget that the first 3 Van Halen albums were made BEFORE Floyd Rose units had been marketed. He got by with a meticulous setup on a Fender vibrato unit and a properly cut and lubricated brass nut, with no locking tuners.

Idgaf about evh. Never did. I also dgaf about how old you are, how long you’ve been playing, how well you can cut a nut, or how long you’ve been butchering guitars. I remember that V. Pure hack job.

My prior statement stands: Floyd>Kahler. 24/7.

[JamesPaul]

The one experience I’ve had with Kahler, if you did a bend, it would return sharp and you had to depress the bar to make it return to pitch. A friend showed me a way around it. But it’s effort. You have to bend the ball end of the string at a 45deg and solder them! He ended up doing some mod on the saddles to try and overcome it too. I’m used to Floyd. I think you kind of start with one or the other and it’s awkward to change. While I didn’t do any rigorous scientific testing, the Kahler seemed to have way less sustain than my similar guitar with a floyd.

One does need to pre-bend the strings for best results. However both Ernie Ball and GHS make strings that have an extra "wrap" around the strings at the ball end. I never have an issue with them going out of tune. Indeed, soldering was a common solution if you wanted to use your favorite brand of strings, which may not have had the extra "wrap".

I just picked up my first Floyd in 2020. It does a much better cricket/flutter, but it is a cast iron bit** to tune when compared to my Kahlers. It is like I can hammer on my Kahlers, but I have to be super gentle with my Floyd. They are both different, kind of like....well, you know where I was going....

[El Dunco]

One does need to pre-bend the strings for best results. However both Ernie Ball and GHS make strings that have an extra "wrap" around the strings at the ball end. I never have an issue with them going out of tune. Indeed, soldering was a common solution if you wanted to use your favorite brand of strings, which may not have had the extra "wrap".

I just picked up my first Floyd in 2020. It does a much better cricket/flutter, but it is a cast iron bit** to tune when compared to my Kahlers. It is like I can hammer on my Kahlers, but I have to be super gentle with my Floyd. They are both different, kind of like....well, you know where I was going....

Is it an OFR? Most of the licensed ones I’ve tried are crap. They creak when you wiggle them. The real thing is smooth and dead silent no matter how aggressive you are with it. I tend to stay in standard 9-42 so I need no more than 2 springs. Fluttering doesn’t sound as good and it also doesn’t feel as nice to use with any more than 2.

The one exception is whatever Floyd came with my 7 string. It’s perfectly stable enough, does the job. Doesn’t quite have that nice touch the 6 has but I don’t expect it to as it has an extra string to contend with.

One thing that always bothered me starting out is the way they pull all your other strings flat when you bend (unison bends for example) and you have to rest your hand on the bridge and push it back to compensate, it’s not a huge deal but I go back and forth between fixed and trem.

You can totally hear even on major label studio records with guitarists known for using Floyds, their palm mutes go a little sharp if they’re particularly heavy handed on the bridge.

[JamesPaul]

Is it an OFR? Most of the licensed ones I’ve tried are crap. They creak when you wiggle them. The real thing is smooth and dead silent no matter how aggressive you are with it. I tend to stay in standard 9-42 so I need no more than 2 springs. Fluttering doesn’t sound as good and it also doesn’t feel as nice to use with any more than 2.

The one exception is whatever Floyd came with my 7 string. It’s perfectly stable enough, does the job. Doesn’t quite have that nice touch the 6 has but I don’t expect it to as it has an extra string to contend with.

One thing that always bothered me starting out is the way they pull all your other strings flat when you bend (unison bends for example) and you have to rest your hand on the bridge and push it back to compensate, it’s not a huge deal but I go back and forth between fixed and trem.

You can totally hear even on major label studio records with guitarists known for using Floyds, their palm mutes go a little sharp if they’re particularly heavy handed on the bridge.

My Floyd is whatever came on the 2020 Fender RI HM Strat. Tuning-wise, has been as stable as my Kahlers, once I get it tuned up. Those struglles are here. Post #9, as it does not appear to be taking me there when I check the link.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-guitar-shop/336328-ngd-never-add-up-your-gift-cards-certificates?p=5711298#post5711298

Here are a couple pics of my Kahlers. You will have to zoom in, but these are the GHS Tremelo Boomers. They use a nylon extra wrap, where the EB RPS used a metallic (bronze?) wrap.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-guitar-shop/335332-fender-namm-2020-peek?p=5701173#post5701173