Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[NegativeEase]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

The secret is... 11 herbs and spices...

No really, here's my settings.

BIAS FX's BOSS DS-1 clone - notice "level" cranked, "dist" at 2.0 - e.g. used as a boost
[ATTACH=CONFIG]94474[/ATTACH]

BIAS FX's JCM 800 - no tweaks whatsoever. Everything cranked except Bass off (typical cranked Marshall setting). Speaker bypassed
[ATTACH=CONFIG]94475[/ATTACH]

SIR2 using Ownhammer's Celestion G12-65 speaker iR (Shure SM57 mic)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]94476[/ATTACH]

Waves GEQ Classic mono and settings; this is where the real magic happens - of special note:

125Hz slightly boosted for "cab thump"
200Hz cut for tightening (less bassy mush)
500Hz cut for "less mids more scooped metal"
800Hz cut for "less mids more scooped metal"
1.25K boosted for those "gnarly mids"
2K slightly cut for "upper mid shaping"
3.15K boosted for that "hi-mid hash"
4K slightly boosted for "crunch"
8K left at 0dB (normally I would taper off to around -3dB) for "brightness"

Overall effect - tight, crunchy, biting 80's metal tone that retains some warmth with a little thump

[ATTACH=CONFIG]94477[/ATTACH]

This is what I was referring to in my post -in the 80s using a Rat, MXR+, TS or BOSS OD as a level boost and not much grit added at all so that you smack the Marshall input with pretty clean higher level and allow the Marshall to break it up with preamp distortion.

It's the classic 80s arena rock distortion with clarity and intelligibility method.

[Foleee]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Reading all the thread is really funny that in the first page everyone said "that tone is just a boosted 800 with some post eq" and after 10 pages of discussing everything from pickup magnets to caps to speakers to frequency bands we have come to the conclusion "that tone is just a boosted 800 with some post eq".

[TVFV]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I can't believe someone would read all that.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Reading all the thread is really funny that in the first page everyone said "that tone is just a boosted 800 with some post eq"

Nope - not true.

Only 2-3 ppl suggested that overall in the entire thread, and that suggestion didn't even start until page 2 (Kamanda).

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

The legend lives on I see!!! LOL!!!

"...and after 10 pages of discussing everything from pickup magnets to caps to speakers to frequency bands..."

You left out wireless, capacitance, guitar construction, and oddly enough the different pickups themselves (not to mention barometric pressure, temperature, choice of breakfast cereal, and time of day). Some things which I'd never even given a second thought to and some things about which I didn't even know about until I started this thread. All of which, though, will go toward improving my own tone going forward (Vivian's tone aside). What you do with your tone is up to you.

(Not singling you or your post out just by the way i.e. don't have time to respond to the rest right now but rest assured I shall).

Chat soonest.

Regards,

Dale.

[oilpit]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Okay I have been one of the biggest critics of OP and I feel like there have been lots of posts referring to me and other people that take issue with OP’s....unique....way of steering discussion. I just have to say that in regards to stuff like this

Nope - not true.

Only 2-3 ppl suggested that overall in the entire thread, and that suggestion didn't even start until page 2 (Kamanda).

That is just empirically false and you can go back to the beginning of the thread (hell just the first page) to confirm that.

I promise you I’m not a troll, I’m not some grumpy keyboard warrior that wants to **** on this poor guy just for trying to get his tone, it’s just how disingenuous op is. If you look back my second post I said that I understood his lust for the perfect tone but what he wants is hz for hz reproduction of a tone, he says it’s “cheating” to do any post EQing, despite by his own admission that was a huge part of the tone he wanted. No matter what advice is given he will either dispute, ignore, or just post some gigantic wall of text going on about pot values and pickup orientation and amp speakers.

I love posting in tone threads and I have definitely done the same in the past. I understand simply wanting to talk about pickups and gear and tone and maybe if this were some kind of Viv Campbell forum where we discussed his rig and stuff that would be different but we’ve got a 10 page thread that has been artificially extended at the expense of posters trying to help him.

If that makes me a troll or a ****ty member of the community I apologize. I am not trying to flame anyone or call names, but I take issue with OPs submissions and attitude.

To anyone I have offended, I do apologize, I love this forum and want it to thrive I hate trolls and flamers. I have my issues with his thread but I never meant to baselessly insult anyone.

[NegativeEase]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I can't believe someone would read all that.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

To summarize some of this long read

From my experience on many rigs and knowing the science pretty well, the later you add clipping/saturation/distortion effects in your chain the more detailed and intelligible the tone will be (meaning the distortion is more of an accent to the notes) but the less uniform and cohesive it will be (meaning less detail and more the effect as the lead tonal quality) So if you want a fuzzy or a distorted wall of saturation -use a very high output guitar pickup or hit the chain very early and hard with a pedal, if you want more a good mix of both use post pedals or with the pre amp, and if you want clarity and detail in your saturation and the distortion as an accent, use more of the the effects loop or Power stage.

It works on the same principle as preserving the essence in signal processing in digital compression. the longer you preserve the original waveform essence by delaying the insertion of distortion, the more subtlety and detail will be represented in the creation of the waveform at the power stage.

I'm sure this is not always the case -as you can mix high output with a unity signal through out the rest of the chain and create the remaining overdrive elsewhere for a blend, but there are fundamental laws of physics and electricity that dictate this in general terms -so if you want to figure out someone's effected or overdriven tone -listen to how the sound of the guitar/pickups interact with the distortion and lay out the order in the chain of how the sound is created before trying to pick out individual brands.

[Foleee]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Nope - not true.

Only 2-3 ppl suggested that overall in the entire thread, and that suggestion didn't even start until page 2 (Kamanda).

First reply to OP: "Vivian’s tone, to my ears is a pretty standard hot rodded Marshall tone. I wouldn’t think it would be all that difficult to replicate."

[NegativeEase]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

First reply to OP: "Vivian’s tone, to my ears is a pretty standard hot rodded Marshall tone. I wouldn’t think it would be all that difficult to replicate."

First thing I heard was standard Strat 80s semi saturated Marshall tone ala Iron Maiden . i.e. Dimarzio Super Distortion into boost pedal into Marshall into Celestion G12 75W

Meaning that TS interest in his Vivian Campbell's tone is probably as much his style and touch creating the nuances of the tone than the rig

So TS should probably cut off Vivian's hands and borrow them to really truly nail it! (dont do that TS)


I think tone is so much psychological and religion. Ive known people convince themselves that somebody's rig created their special tone only to find them get on **** rig and sound the similar.

I've also seen a famous guitarist borrow my backup guitar -a $500 Hamer Echotone and sound pretty much identical to his 6000.00 Vintage Gibson 335 . -His style was so much of his tone. Not saying good gear doesn't matter -but playing is more of the equation than most people ever want to hear.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Well here goes.

Let me also start by apologizing to anybody who has been offended by this thread and my long posts. Sorry. Also: it was never my intention to simply drag this out for the sake of conversation. Unfortunately one thing always led to another. And that’s how we ended up with ten pages. I suppose I could just have started ten different threads on the various topics and maybe that would have kept things simple. But here we are. For better or for worse.

There are two different tones. The one being the live tone and the other being the studio tone. They are different. And neither, based on what the testing and playing around that I have done, are as simple as diming a JCM800 with a bit of EQ (read on before chastising me for this statement). What’s more: I do not agree that they are generic ‘80’s metal tones. And I can tell you right now that with my current setup I will not get that live tone. It doesn’t matter what pickups go into two of my guitars it is just not going to happen with those guitars. But this I did not know at the time of starting this thread. I figured a change of pickups would get me there (also bearing in mind that I have never specifically chosen pickups before nor have I ever changed pickups before). Thanks to this and my other threads and the testing and experimentation I have done now: one of the main reasons for that “woody, gnarly, midrangy” live tone has got to do with that Charvel having an Alder body (and this I confirmed with Buddy last year already). But I thought by putting in a DM SD into my black Jackson that it would get the live tone. So now I know it’s not going to happen. Not even if you plugged two of my guitars into a JCM800. The studio tone is a totally different story. You have a lot more control over the tone to begin with not to mention any number of tools to make up for whatever may be missing tonewise coming from the guitar. So by a process of elimination and experimentation it is now obvious that I am not going to get the live tone with two of my guitars and my CODE amps. as they stand now. And unless I put the Invader is my Alder body guitar and at very least change the speakers in my CODE amps. I am not going to get even close to that live tone. And that is all there is to it really. But I could not have known any of this were it not for these threads.

And loads of other things have come up. Capacitance for example. My wireless. I knew that things sounded differently through my wireless than through a cable. Did not know why. Now I do know why. And it is but one thing that is robbing my tone, all other things being equal, of those mids. that make up a good part of that live tone.

Now I know that I said “EQ is cheating”. My point is, and was, I don’t want to get one tone, preferably the live tone, on a recording after it has been manipulated to death while my live tone doesn’t sound anything like my recorded tone. I really don’t see the point of this. I do not have an issue EQ’ing on the live end before recording from my amps. I do have an issue EQ’ing tone recorded from my amps. live and after the fact. Big difference between the two. Now if I was only interested in recording and the studio tone well then no problem obviously.

And it is easy to say well just go out and buy a JCM800 or two and there you go. First of all and as I have tried to explain above: I believe that there is a little more to it than that. Second: I cannot just go out and spend, what, $10 000, on new amps. just because a few people who I do not even know say that is what is needed. At least not without questioning and trying to understand what is being said. On this score LLL has clearly demonstrated that it is possible to get the exact studio tone using VSTs. And that’s at least given me possible options. Who knows. I am still mucking about with the stuff but maybe put that through my amps. and maybe they add the live like tone.

And yeh. My amps. are the cheapest items in my chain unfortunately. This with hindsight a mistake. But they are good amps. I get nice tones out of them. Just not that live tone. But it makes sense to me to try change the speakers and then see. If that does not work well then there are other options to consider. But given the cost of speaker changes in relation to the cost of going out and buying valves well it’s worth a try.

As far as the actual topic is concerned: the SD Invaders are on their way (have since ordered a neck Invader too just to save time and effort). Keen to try them but not holding my breath that they’re going to get me that live tone with my amps. Worst case: I put them in my Alder body Jackson, change CODE speakers, or try those DSL40 amps., who knows thereafter. AxeFX. Kemper Profiler with Marshall cabs. Will see.

Anyways. Not sure what else to say other than to thank all for their contributions. As I said: maybe I should have started separate threads for each topic. Might have been less annoying and less confusing. Problem is that I did not know the questions to ask at the time of starting this thread.

Regards,

Dale.

[NegativeEase]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Well here goes.

Let me also start by apologizing to anybody who has been offended by this thread and my long posts. Sorry. Also: it was never my intention to simply drag this out for the sake of conversation. Unfortunately one thing always led to another. And that’s how we ended up with ten pages. I suppose I could just have started ten different threads on the various topics and maybe that would have kept things simple. But here we are. For better or for worse.

There are two different tones. The one being the live tone and the other being the studio tone. They are different. And neither, based on what the testing and playing around that I have done, are as simple as diming a JCM800 with a bit of EQ. What’s more: I do not agree that they are generic ‘80’s metal tones. And I can tell you right now that with my current setup I will not get that live tone. It doesn’t matter what pickups go into two of my guitars it is just not going to happen with those guitars. But this I did not know at the time of starting this thread. I figured a change of pickups would get me there (also bearing in mind that I have never specifically chosen pickups before nor have I ever changed pickups before). Thanks to this and my other threads and the testing and experimentation I have done now: one of the main reasons for that “woody, gnarly, midrangy” live tone has got to do with that Charvel having an Alder body (and this I confirmed with Buddy last year already). But I thought by putting in a DM SD into my black Jackson that it would get the live tone. So now I know it’s not going to happen. Not even if you plugged two of my guitars into a JCM800. The studio tone is a totally different story. You have a lot more control over the tone to begin with not to mention any number of tools to make up for whatever may be missing tonewise coming from the guitar. So by a process of elimination and experimentation it is now obvious that I am not going to get the live tone with two of my guitars and my CODE amps. as they stand now. And unless I put the Invader is my Alder body guitar and at very least change the speakers in my CODE amps. I am not going to get even close to that live tone. And that is all there is to it really. But I could not have known any of this were it not for these threads.

And loads of other things have come up. Capacitance for example. My wireless. I knew that things sounded differently through my wireless than through a cable. Did not know why. Now I do know why. And it is but one thing that is robbing my tone, all other things being equal, of those mids. that make up a good part of that live tone.

Now I know that I said “EQ is cheating”. My point is, and was, I don’t want to get one tone, preferably the live tone, on a recording after it has been manipulated to death while my live tone doesn’t sound anything like my recorded tone. I really don’t see the point of this. I do not have an issue EQ’ing on the live end before recording from my amps. I do have an issue EQ’ing tone recorded from my amps. live and after the fact. Big difference between the two. Now if I was only interested in recording and the studio tone well then no problem obviously.

And it is easy to say well just go out and buy a JCM800 or two and there you go. First of all and as I have tried to explain above: I believe that there is a little more to it than that. Second: I cannot just go out and spend, what, $10 000, on new amps. just because a few people who I do not even know say that is what is needed. At least not without questioning and trying to understand what is being said. On this score LLL has clearly demonstrated that it is possible to get the exact studio tone using VSTs. And that’s at least given me possible options. Who knows. I am still mucking about with the stuff but maybe put that through my amps. and maybe they add the live like tone.

And yeh. My amps. are the cheapest items in my chain unfortunately. This with hindsight a mistake. But they are good amps. I get nice tones out of them. Just not that live tone. But it makes sense to me to try change the speakers and then see. If that does not work well then there are other options to consider. But given the cost of speaker changes in relation to the cost of going out and buying valves well it’s worth a try.

As far as the actual topic is concerned: the SD Invaders are on their way (have since ordered a neck Invader too just to save time and effort). Keen to try them but not holding my breath that they’re going to get me that live tone with my amps. Worst case: I put them in my Alder body Jackson, change CODE speakers, or try those DSL40 amps., who knows thereafter. AxeFX. Kemper Profiler with Marshall cabs. Will see.

Anyways. Not sure what else to say other than to thank all for their contributions. As I said: maybe I should have started separate threads for each topic. Might have been less annoying and less confusing. Problem is that I did not know the questions to ask at the time of starting this thread.

Regards,

Dale.

Ha. why apologize man! people learn stuff on every thread -many people who lurk you'll never even know about. most any question posed in a forum is a contribution in my opinion.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Ha. why apologize man! people learn stuff on every thread -many people who lurk you'll never even know about. most any question posed in a forum is a contribution in my opinion.

Well... In all fairness and with hindsight: my own retorts to certain posts have contributed toward a certain amount of animosity let’s face it.

But yeh: hope some find some of the stuff on here of value (even if they’re not a “Dio/Campbell Disciple”!!! LOL!!!).

Regards,

Dale.

[NegativeEase]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Well... In all fairness and with hindsight: my own retorts to certain posts have contributed toward a certain amount of animosity let’s face it.

But yeh: hope some find some of the stuff on here of value (even if they’re not a “Dio/Campbell Disciple”!!! LOL!!!).

Regards,

Dale.

Man, I watched a DIO you tube clip multiple times and learned some stuff -all good.

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I think you’re best bet is to try to dial in a tone that you like with the gear you have.

I play in a cover band. What I do is set my amp to get the tone that I like. I don’t try to cop other peoples specific tones.
I might try to get the effects fairly close but even then...I ballpark it.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

@NegativeEase

ACTUALLY!!! I should be arguing with YOU!!! Where do you hear Iron Maiden-ish tone in my Dio/Campbell videos??? LOL!!! I like Iron Maiden but that’s blasphemous!!! LOL!!!

Crass attempt to lighten the mood:

https://youtu.be/iz3nYch1cbo

“Dio can you hear me???...”. LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.