1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

[korovamilkdud]

So I looked in the little booklet of schematics that comes with pickups you buy from SD. One that cought my eye is one humbucker out of phase

Has anyone ever tried this before? I've never heard of such a thing. What's that like?

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

One HB out of phase with itself eh? Sounds like they just wire it to have the signal run through the pup backwards. I am pretty boring with my PUP wiring setups and usually choose the stock setups so I have no idea what it would sound like.
My .02c

 

[rspst14]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

I've never heard of that either, I always thought that phase issues were only relevant when there were more than one pickup involved.

Ryan

 

[Artie]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

I was just checking out one of the little "pink slips" that come with a humbucker, and sure enough, they show a wiring diagram where you reverse the phase of only one coil, relative to the other.

I can't imagine how that would sound good, but then again, if they show it, there must be something to it.

 

[big_black]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Could it be the two split coils out out phase with each other?

 

[rspst14]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Could it be the two split coils out out phase with each other?

That would make a lot more sense.

Ryan

 

[Zerberus]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

ALL humbuckers are wound "in series, out of Phase" (standard wiring w/o any dip switches or other doodads), otherwise they wouldn´t be hum cancelling. There is also "Parallel, out of phase" (Need a 4-conductor PUP to do this), where you keep the hum cancelling but have a much thinner tone.

You can wire the coils in phase to each other, but then you lose the hum cancelling effect of the Humbucker...

I´m a bit confused as to what exactly your question is.....Which schematic do you mean exactly?

 

[Grandor]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

When people say 'Out of phase', scientifically speaking its 'in phase'.
And 'in phase' is 'out of phase'

 

[Artie]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

The two coils are wound out-of-phase. That is, individually, the same direction of excitation will generate waveforms of opposite polarity.

But, because of the way the magnet lays underneath the coils, they are magnetically out-of-phase also. Which now, brings them back to being in-phase waveform wise.

Take an ordinary humbucker, and put it on a o'scope. Pulling a piece of metal away from the coils will generate a negative spike on either coil. (A positive spike as you bring the metal close to the pole pieces.)

So . . . the wiring diagram on the "pink slip" shows reversing the wires of one coil only. Which would put the two coils electrically out-of-phase. It should be a fairly weak, tinny sound.

I may have to try this and see.

btw - if you check your pink slips, its diagram #6.

Edit: Special thanks to Kent S. for helping me to understand all of this.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

ALL humbuckers are wound "in series, out of Phase" (standard wiring w/o any dip switches or other doodads), otherwise they wouldn´t be hum cancelling. There is also "Parallel, out of phase" (Need a 4-conductor PUP to do this), where you keep the hum cancelling but have a much thinner tone.

You can wire the coils in phase to each other, but then you lose the hum cancelling effect of the Humbucker...

I´m a bit confused as to what exactly your question is.....Which schematic do you mean exactly?

The reason that is Zerb is because one of the colis has the opposite induced voltage, so ... you have to connect them out of phase to put the signal back in phase. The so technically all HBs are wired in phase.
You can wire in pahse or out of phase whether in series or in parallel.
Anyway, back to the question at hand ... HB series O/O/P with itself, severe ear bleed high end, almost like a wah left at the top, minus gain ... maybe a useful neck tone BUT ... then the HB is no longer humcancelling because you reversed one of the coils, which put the hum back in phase with itself. ...
I did it one time with a DMZ Super II thru a bright crunchy amp, loud! I don't think I'll be repeating the experience anytime soon thank you.
Parallel O/O/P would be even thinnner and even less gain, and of course not humcancelling.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Oh well, half right is more than I usually am (unless it´s a Jackson/Charvel question)

Thanks, Kent :friday:

 

[Kent S.]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Oh well, half right is more than I usually am (unless it´s a Jackson/Charvel question)

Thanks, Kent :friday:

I forgot you'd be up now ... :laugh2:

 

[Kent S.]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

See, the problem is that the signal starts out O/O/P, you have to reverse one coil in relation to the other to put it back in phase ... see? In doing so the hum (which is NOT induced in the coils, it's merely picked up;therefore it is the same phase in each coil, and since one coil gets revrsed ...) is cancelled while the signal is put back in phase. Some people try to technically correct by saying that the coils are connect O/O/P, which they are, BUT the signal is what counts and that is In phase ... Phase refers to the signal alone, if it's in phase it sounds in phase ... calling an in phase pup, O/O/P just confuses the issue, that's just the mechanical/electrical/physics application required for the humbucking condition to exist.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Ah, and being that the signal is getting picked up twice, but IN phase, the signal comes so to speak at "double strength" because the identical waveforms combine to form a signal with a higher amplitude, hence the higher output of a Humbucker :22:

(After writing that: Yep, I´m DEFINTIELY up and not sleeping anymore )

 

[Kent S.]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Ah, and being that the signal is getting picked up twice, but IN phase, the signal comes so to speak at "double strength" because the identical waveforms combine to form a signal with a higher amplitude, hence the higher output of a Humbucker :22:

(After writing that: Yep, I´m DEFINTIELY up and not sleeping anymore )

Right ... however the parallel arrangement still adds signal as well, (you might say the series multlplies it, but that's mathmatically invalid ...Think about this ... two coils in parallel (like on a strat), each pup 6k, same mags for both, the volume is the same as for one pup in spite of the impedance drop ..., certainly a 3k pup by itself wouldn't prduce as loud a signal as two 6k pups in parallel ... there is still signal being contributed from the other pup (unlike dummy coils which either add to the impedance or subtract from it, depending on how they are wired). The series connection makes it one big coil, whereas the parallel are two separate coils being added together in a linear fashion, but because of the lowered imepedance, well they come out about the same volume as one pup with double the Z (referencing individual coils here mind you).
Anyway, you're awake and I'm crashing ... :laugh2: Later TZ Be cool! :cool3:

 

[Marcel]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

When people say 'Out of phase', scientifically speaking its 'in phase'.
And 'in phase' is 'out of phase'

coz the manetic poles are the different on both coils....
so on normal series wiring the coils are elctrical out of phase which make them pick uo the string vibrations in phase...

 

[Kent S.]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

The two coils are wound out-of-phase. That is, individually, the same direction of excitation will generate waveforms of opposite polarity.

Actually the coils are both wound the same direction so they are in phase, but they are hooked out of phase ... Now there are some odd ball pups out there that do have one coil wound reversed, those are out so they are connected in phase to cancel ...

But, because of the way the magnet lays underneath the coils, they are magnetically out-of-phase also. Which now, brings them back to being in-phase waveform wise.

Right, if they were not opposite mag polarity you'd be cancelling part of the signal along with the hum, which would give you an out of phase sound, but be humcancelling ... Now considering that you could no longer get an in phase sound from a pup designed that way (you'd have to use vertical bars, or rod mags) to be in phase and humcancelling I would deem that as shooting yourself in the foot territory ...

Take an ordinary humbucker, and put it on a o'scope. Pulling a piece of metal away from the coils will generate a negative spike on either coil. (A positive spike as you bring the metal close to the pole pieces.)

Well, that depends on the combination of the wind direction AND magnetic polarity ... the two aren't mutually exclusive ... But in the case of what we are speaking of here, that's correct of course.

As a general rule of thumb ...
If you're going to do out of phase, you are generally better off putting distance between the two coils, as there is less common harmonic information to cancel (most of the common info is contains towards the fundamentals than the upper harmonics or partials). Series out of phase always reminded me of a fixed *tin can* flange when done on a single HB, maybe kinda cool for a neck tone (once in a while), but that's about it ... but it is all personal taste.

 

[Artie]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

Actually the coils are both wound the same direction so they are in phase, but they are hooked out of phase ...

One of these days . . . this will sink in. :smack:

So, basically, the two coils of a humbucker are not exactly like the neck/middle RW/RP combo of a Strat?

 

[korovamilkdud]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

So it's reallly harsh is it? Just curious. :dance:

 

[Kent S.]

Re: 1 humbucker out of phase with itself?

One of these days . . . this will sink in. :smack:

So, basically, the two coils of a humbucker are not exactly like the neck/middle RW/RP combo of a Strat?

No, ... Physically speaking as they are wound the same direction, however the way they are connected makes them the same (in function).
DiMarzio does the same thing with their single coils, they have reverse polarity models, but not RWRP models ... They just swap the RP leads at the pup body. Why not wind them backwards ... Simple, it's just not necessary!
Note, again I'll mention this, years ago some pups *were* wound with one coil opposite ... I think that turned into a pain, and whoever did it stopped the practice.