100 watt tube amps just too loud?

[papersoul]

My band plays heavy modern rock...cleans....heavy rhythm, leads...the whole thing.

Problem is, more and more places have us use very low stage volume. In this situation, the master rarely gets much past 9:00. This was a big reason I sold my VHT 100UL, just overkill in all situations. Only time I got to crank it was when me and a friend cranked it in his basement.

I used a Line 6 Vetta for years for this reason.

Now I am going back to tubes and still haven't had my hughes & Kettner past 9:30 on the master volume. One good thing is my H&K Switchblade is partially solid state in the preamp so it works very well at low to moderate volumes.

This has been my big problem and issue with ever buying a high end, high gain amp.....could never use it! Maybe that is why Marshalls and Mesa Boogies are so popular. Heck, Peavey's are also great at low volume. Marshalls, Mesas, Fenders and Peaveys all sound good at lower volumes...basically club volumes...I know we compared my VHT to a DSL100 at a gig. The Marshall at 11:00 was the same volume as the VHT on 9:00! At that volume.....the VHT felt and sounded constipated. Sure it sounds awesome at noon, but it never sees that volume.

The Marshall feels and sounds better at this same volume because it just doesn't require to be pushed as hard to sound as good to me.

I am worried because I have a Rivera coming this week. If all else fails I'll be getting something more mainstream that maybe will not have to be cranked as loud.

I prefer to use amp gain and not pedal distortion so a Fender amp and a distortion pedal is not an option.

I can pretty much say I'll never own or use another 412. Right now I have two Ear Candy 212 cabs, a Buzz Bomb and Boa - GREAT cabs. Problem is...most 100 watt amps just sound better but I have to run em so low. There is a good thread about this at the Gear Page.

I have thought about Attenuators and Hotplates but I have heard they are not all they are cracked up to be and the Hotplate colors your tone. Now, there is a new product called the Ultimate Attenuator for $500 that is supposed to be great and solves a lot of these issues.

I just wish an amplifier builder would address this problem.

Thoughts guys?????

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Couldn't agree more.

I play through a Fender Deluxe Reverb. If I need to be louder I bring two!

Lew

 

[Mincer]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

i use a 6v6 based no-master volume Mesa, which is about 18 watts. It breaks up well at about 10:00, which is heard easily above a 5 piece band. I think it has to do with the design of the amp- but also, master volume amps are overdriving preamp tubes at low volume, which essentially takes the power tubes (the good ones) out of the equasion. To run a 100 watt tube amp loud enough to distort, turn the master on 10. Then bring up the gain knob till you hear it distort- sometimes it helps if the amp has been on for an hour or so...you probably couldn't be in the same room with it since it would be so loud.

 

[34029324079]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Im in the same boat. I had the marshall jcm800 2203 half stack. boy was it loud! For the volume I needed it at it did not sound so good. Now that I know about hotplates, I wish I would not have sold it. I plan to get a hotplate in the future so I can find that spot where you get the tubes worked up some but at a useable volume.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

It depends on the application.

Guys like Lew will preach all day long against anything more than 30w, but he's not competing against a 4 or 8x10 and a deathmetal drummer.

 

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Even 50 watters can be insane! Heck, we even played some Pantera covers but my master never went past 9:00! I could go back to digital.:banghead: It isn't like we are touring musicians, just local musicians playing small to medium sized clubs. Heck, the bigger clubs have us turn way down and crank the PA.

Many will say a 100 watter turned down will sound better than cranking a 30 watt amp for certain types of music. I kind of agree. I can't see an Orange 30 watt head pulling off huge heavy rock tones. Maybe I'll look into the DSL 50. Marshalls seem to work better at club volumes as do a lot of Mesas with the low power switches.

Here again......many people say these amps sound much better at full volume, but turned down...so forget the switches! LOL. I know my VHT sounded much better at 100 watts than 50 watts. Now, maybe an amp built for 50 watts is better however...like a 50 watt Marshall, Mesa, Rivera, VHT, etc....

 

[doveman]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

In my early years I had a TWO 4x12 (Altecs to boot) with a 100W amp. Sound man could only throw up his hands ... the amp weighed as much as I did ... I was young.

But learned quickly ... went to 2X12 ... then a 1x12 EVM12L with my Boogie set on 60W switch. It can be as loud as I want to be at 100W. The EVM can stand with most 4x12 cabs ... an amazing speaker. But with a mic ... through the PA. It's just better.

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

It depends on the application.

Guys like Lew will preach all day long that anything more than 30w, but he's not competing against a 4 or 8x10 and a deathmetal drummer.

It's a different tool for a different application.

You're playing music-specific venues. You're playing bills with five other bands. The appeal of the venue, directly, is the music. And alot of these places the music draw is enough where they can do things like have "all ages" nights and bills with no alcohol served.

However, for playing the bars, the places that you go into and set up for a three or four set night 30 watts is more than enough. The goal is not to attain the same level of volume as the other places. Addiitonally alot of bands will go and mic up amps if necessary to be able to provide for the needs if they grow greater than the 30 watts.

These venues have changed over the past twenty years. Music isn't as much at the forefront and we have had to come to rely on smaller amps in order to appease the management of the place.

I enjoy going out to a bar as much as the next guy. But even as a musician there's nothing that strikes greater fear in my heart than watching some dolt wheel in a 4 x 12 cab and slap a Marshall or Mesa head on top of it. There's a reason why the bar lets out a collective groan when this happens; it's going to be another night of a band that doesn't "get it." They don't understand that the draw, as odd as it may be, isn't just them. It's the ability to socialize and drink and hang out and enjoy the atomsphere without blowing your hearing out totally.

And because we now have to compete with the likes of DJ's and Karaoke it's in our best interest to throttle down the amps and create a condition where the patrons will stay. We weren't hired for an artistic endeavor, we were hired to keep folks around to drink more booze. If the bar owner felt he could achieve that task by having Poodles dogfight in Jell-O then I can bet you that the stage would be converted to a kiddie pool and the 'fridge would be working overtime to make that great jiggly concoction.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

For non-heavy rock styles, I fine a 30-40w amp is just about perfect. You can also get great rock sounds with amps that size for smaller club gigs. For larger clubs, 50w is good for more punch. The only time I've felt the need for a 100w amp onstage has been on large outdoor stages, especially when you're relying on the 'charity' of a monitor engineer you've never met.

100w amps also make sense for modern high gain amp users in medium sized clubs, as those amps are generally designed to get some warmth from the power section but not really any overdrive.

 

[J Moose]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

It depends on the application.

Guys like Lew will preach all day long that anything more than 30w, but he's not competing against a 4 or 8x10 and a deathmetal drummer.

I dunno man.

One of the bands I work with a lot has a B3 player who also carries a Clav & Whurlie & runs those through a silverface Twin; bass player has a '70s SVT with a 4x10 or 8x10 depending on how big the venue is and a pretty slammin' but not "dethmetal" drummer since he crossed over from jazzland...

The guitarists main tone is a '67 or '68 Deluxe Reverb as a head into one side of a Marshall 4x12 w/ Greenbacks. The other side of the cab is a Rivera M60 that runs his FX when used... which isn't a lot of the time.

Anywhoo...he's got NO problems being "too loud" with the Dlx hitting a pair of 2x12's.

 

[kevlar3000]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

I run anything between 20 and a 100 watts, really just based on my mood on any given night. Most gigs, I still use a Weber Mass, cause even 20 watts in the right kinda room is too loud. The bottom end, and roar of a 20 to 50 watt amp will never compare to what a 100 watts brings. Doesn't mean lower watt amps don't 'bring it', but there is a very different feel with low and high watt heads. I embrace them all, glad I have so many to mess with, and consider the Weber Mass among the best tools I have ever had. I have never had a complaint about my tone, or my stage volume.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

It's been at least 20 years since I played a gig with a 100. Havn't missed it bit.

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

It's been at least 20 years since I played a gig with a 100. Havn't missed it bit.

I'll bet your chiropractor misses you!

 

[Wattage]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

I have never in my life gigged with anything less than 50 watts and generally I use a 100wt into a 4x12, when I played larger venues I used a full stack. I have never had an issue maybe I am out of place but I don't think so.

Certainly I wounldn't play the local library with a 1/2 stack but you know I am generally not playing libraries. A lot of clubs these days provide a backline of cabs and usually it is a 4x12 so I can't imagine they expect me to bring in a 20wt amp.

 

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

One thing, keep in mind you don't have to turn it up loud...just because it is a 100 watt head.

One thing I have done is gone to a 212 cabinet. I run a 100 watt head...but I prefer and love the way they sound and feel for heavier styles....even at lower volumes. However, I would love to find a lower wattage amp that could be pushed a bit more.

One thing I read was that most multi channel amps tend to rely on the preamp gain for the primary tone.....so it really shouldn;t matter how much extra is available. We play one place that is really small and we are close to the bar so we can;t play too loud. I bring my 100 watt head and 212 cab but keep the amp at low volumes. I can be just as quiet as a guy with a watter (which can be LOUD). This is another area in which my H&K Switchblade seems to excel. It sounds great at low volumes due to so much of the voicing coming from the preamp.....but it also sounds tremendous cranked because the power amp adds extra warmth and feel.

I am not looking for power amp distortion...just the magic that the power amp can add!

I am awaiting the arrival of a Rivera 100 watt K-100 but this will be saved for the rock clubs that cator to bands...where we have 3-4 heavy bands playing ina heavy rock club. This is a time when I can turn up the master.

I still wouldn't mind exploring thw possibility of a modelling combo for small bar gigs.

Good thread - http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2457229#post2457229

 

[WhoFan]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Ya i found the same..... most bars soundmen want a low volume on stage so they can have complete controll over the mix... I played the same place twice with 2 different soundmen.... first guy let me set up my large 5150 and crank it the way i liked.... 2nd time the other guy tried to get me to turn my 4x12 towards the side of the stage.... I was like what?!?!?!? I never heard myself the whole night... it was a disaster... yet the first time there many members of the audience and the bouncers were impressed with my sound that night.. the Bouncers even tried out my amp when we were packing up.... 2nd time i couldn't hear a thing so i couldn't play my best

A few outdoor bar gigs i used the 5150 stack and we had the cops show up to turn it down... complaints from many blocks away!

I started using a 1x12 Marshall cab with my Large rig.. it worked well with my 5150/Classic50 rig... sounds amazing and the 1x12 i used on an amp stand that angled it like a monitor... no trouble hearing myself ever again..

After a while i got sick of lugging all the heavy amps and i had started using a pedalboard and a Peavey Classic 30 combo... I really started to cut back on things... Always hate the 3am load up after a day at work and a late gig. Moving a fridge Plus worth of amp gear was crazy and over kill... It was funny.... drummer had a van load of stuff-his road case filled his ford van.., i had a van load of stuff, keyboard player had a pickup stuffed full of stuff, and the bass player had 1 amp, 1 axe, and a cord....

I am holding hope that oneday i can find a Modeling set up that works for me... I've seen some bands including some pros use them and sound amazing!!!! If i can get a POD LIVE or a VOX Tone Lab to work well enough for me in the future i'd be a happy man... for now i find they sound good for heavy tones but most modelers cleans suck!

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

My first "real" amp was a 100w NMV Marshall.

That's it in the back:

When I used that, I had to use a distortion/fuzz box to make it have any gain at all at any volume indoors. At the time it was Chandler Tube Driver and Big Muff. It sounded like absolute crap. To get that ****er t sound "good" it had to be past 6 and closer to 8- but when I did that it was too outrageously loud to do in any room and I honestly feared for my speakers. So I ran with that amp and the pedals- until my band and my friends said "your rig sounds like ass."

For whatever reason I figured I NEEDED 100w to play rock and roll, so I went to a 100w MV Marshall, but that still sounded thin and weak at stage volume, so I traded it for another 100w MV Marshall and that sounded thin and weak. Eventually, I took the advice of everybody around me and got a 50w amp... After trading around a few 50w amps I found the keeper.

The base sound of this amp, the pre and the power section, is a great sound. It's ballsy enough just using the preamp to the desired level and the master at 2 or 3. It sounds awesome above that, but it's totally impractical in any real world scenario.

I choose the 50w head and a 4x12 bottom because it sounds the best to me. I've tried many different 2x12 cabs and many different combos to try to approximate that sound. I would love to not have to haul a 4x12- but it sounds better than any other configuration I've used.

Is a 50w head "overkill?" Yeah. But it has this nifty contraption called a volume knob...

 

[D-EJ915]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Amp wattage really doesn't mean much for volume...

Remember that a 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 10 watt amp, a 100 watt amp isn't going to blow the doors off a 60 watt one.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Papersoul did you order a River Knucklehead? Those amps are REALLY loud!
As for low wattage amps, amps below 30 watts have smaller transformers and usually different types of tubes so they just don't sound as big and punchy as 50\100 watt heads. Just find one that sounds good in lower volumes as well.

 

[Stratman]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Couldn't agree more.

I play through a Fender Deluxe Reverb. If I need to be louder I bring two!

Lew

Smart move!

I play using different amps that meet the venue that I am playing in.

It might be a Fender Super Reverb for Club A; Fender Bassman for Club B; Celtic Edana for Club C; Holland Little Jimi for Club D; or a POD through the PA for Club S or any combination of the various amps I have in my collection.

Only once in a while will I bring out the 100 Watt amps for which I use a 1/2 inch Plexiglass sound barrier to help (???) cut down on the volume of air being pushed by the speakers.