100 watt tube amps just too loud?

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Papersoul did you order a River Knucklehead? Those amps are REALLY loud!
As for low wattage amps, amps below 30 watts have smaller transformers and usually different types of tubes so they just don't sound as big and punchy as 50\100 watt heads. Just find one that sounds good in lower volumes as well.

Yes, I have a used ('90s) Knucklehead K100 coming this week. The guys on the Gear Page talk about how you can set the master volumes pretty high and control volume with the effects loop levels. Apparently it works really well. You can get the power tubes cooking this way but will still not be hitting the transformer too hard.

If it does not work out, I'll get a 50 watt head...something that isn't as loud as a VHT or Rivera. I thikn the new Marshalls work really well at moderate volumes. I find both the Marshall DSL50 and the Mesa Single Rectifier both work well at decent volumes. Rivera also makes an M60 which can also be run at lower power. There are also many Mesa options in this categorie.

My problem is that I much prefer a great, almost fender clean in a any amp. H&K, Rivera and a few others have this in spades.

Heck, I may even pick up a used Line 6 Flextone III combo for small bar gigs. I remember seeing Geoff Tate's band about 5-6 years back at a large rock club that held about 500 people. Both guitarists ran Line 6 Flextone 212 combos and the tones were surprisingly amazing. I had no complaints!

 

[Dirtyking]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

I went from a 100 watt head to a 50 watter. And for my style of music it was hard to adjust from the tons of headroom you get from the 100 watter.

But now I can hear after a gig.

 

[WhoFan]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Amp wattage really doesn't mean much for volume...

Remember that a 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 10 watt amp, a 100 watt amp isn't going to blow the doors off a 60 watt one.

ya that is true.... but from what i understand a 50 watt will have power tube distortion before a 100 watt would..... or so that is what i've been led understand..

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

ya that is true.... but from what i understand a 50 watt will have power tube distortion before a 100 watt would..... or so that is what i've been led understand..

Yes, it's more apparent in headroom, attack and tone than in actual output volume.

 

[some_dude]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

I know we compared my VHT to a DSL100 at a gig. The Marshall at 11:00 was the same volume as the VHT on 9:00!

What speakers were in each cab?

I have thought about Attenuators and Hotplates but I have heard they are not all they are cracked up to be and the Hotplate colors your tone. Now, there is a new product called the Ultimate Attenuator for $500 that is supposed to be great and solves a lot of these issues.

I just wish an amplifier builder would address this problem.

They have....

Mesa Mark IV - 85w class A/B full power/15w class A low power mode.

Mesa Roadster - 100w full power, 50w half power... channel assignable.

Mesa Roadking - 120w, 100w, 50w modes... channel assignable.

Orange Thunderverb - 200w full power, 100w half power with built in attenuator

There's a few others, but that should get you started.

Many will say a 100 watter turned down will sound better than cranking a 30 watt amp for certain types of music. I kind of agree.

I agree too. In areas were headroom is important (massive chugga, chugga metal stuff) a high headroom amp will be more dynamic and toss way more low end out.

I can't see an Orange 30 watt head pulling off huge heavy rock tones.

You need to try a 30w Orange through a 4x12.

Maybe I'll look into the DSL 50. Marshalls seem to work better at club volumes as do a lot of Mesas with the low power switches.

Here again......many people say these amps sound much better at full volume, but turned down...so forget the switches! LOL. I know my VHT sounded much better at 100 watts than 50 watts. Now, maybe an amp built for 50 watts is better however...like a 50 watt Marshall, Mesa, Rivera, VHT, etc....

It's a trade off. A 30w amp will never sound like a 100w amp... it's impossible. The difference in headroom makes all the difference in the world. The real difference is in application; although at loud volumes a 100w amp on full power will sound better than the same amp on half power, will it sound better at low volumes? ie, with the master volume on 2 (full power) or 7 (half power)?

I'd rather use a low power switch than an attenuator (and I've used both).... but it's a personal taste thing as you may find you like an attenuator more than a low power switch.

100w amps also make sense for modern high gain amp users in medium sized clubs, as those amps are generally designed to get some warmth from the power section but not really any overdrive.

+1. I always found my Rectifier worked best when the power tubes were 'pushed', but not 'overdriven'.

Yes, I have a used ('90s) Knucklehead K100 coming this week. The guys on the Gear Page talk about how you can set the master volumes pretty high and control volume with the effects loop levels. Apparently it works really well. You can get the power tubes cooking this way but will still not be hitting the transformer too hard.

Using the FX loop to control the volume is pretty much the same as using the master volume to control the volume. I don't know what they're hearing, but it's not the power tubes being pushed any harder.

I went from a 100 watt head to a 50 watter. And for my style of music it was hard to adjust from the tons of headroom you get from the 100 watter.

+1.

I still fight with this.

I'd say that for the average 'loud' rock/metal band 50w is just about the perfect balance of headroom vs power. If you're playing heavily scooped mids type metal I'd suggest 100w, and if you're playing in a more moderate rock band then 15w to 30w is great.

Also... given the option I'll never gig a 2x12. When possible I use a 6x12 3/4 stack.... not because it's louder, but because I find I can turn down more without loosing as much fullness as I would using a 2x12.

 

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

How is the Mark IV in 15 watt mode? Will it do the heavy chug?

I was told with my Rivera K-100 I can remove the two inner tubes and get a thicker, more modern sound that sounds a bit more pushed! I was also told I can run the effects loop levels lower to assist! We'll see soon!

I thought of Orange, but was afriad it could not handle heavy rock and they seem expensive for that they are. Maybe I am wrong.

Right now my 100 watt H&K Switchblade does a great job at low volumes and that is a big reaosn i like this amp.....some of the preamp is solid state so it delivers good tones to my ears at respectable volumes.

This is from another thread on The Gear Page.

"It's not the power of the amp that's the problem.

I can get my 100W amp to sound great not only at small-gig volume but also at home volume (I won't say 'bedroom', because it is just a little too loud to use in the evenings), at which point it's putting out about .5W. The fact that it's got 200 times that power is completely irrelevant - it could be 1000W and it wouldn't be any louder.

If you want to crank the amp right up, yes of course 100W is too much for anything smaller than a large club, unless you're using attenuation of some sort. But we're talking about a channel-switching amp which is purposely designed to use preamp distortion... the whole point is that you don't crank it into power-stage distortion, because if you did you'd lose the ability to keep the other channel clean. 20W may well be too loud if you're going to push the power stage, and if you're not then it really doesn't matter how much more power the amp has than you're using."

Using low gain tubes:

"No, you want lower gain tubes. As Mike says, it doesn't let you get 'power stage distortion' any earlier (but that's not what this thread is about, since there's no way the amp is even close to power stage distortion anyway, I would think - especially if the clean channel is still clean), but it will allow you to turn the controls up further to reach the same final gain and volume. Usually one reason amps don't sound so good at low volume is due to the way the controls interact with the circuit when they're close to the lower end of their resistance range - if you can get the pot up to (say) 3, rather than 1, it will probably make the amp sound more lively and open. (This is also the reason mild attenuation can help even on a MV amp that isn't turned right up, BTW.)

Certain tube substitutions seem to really help with creating the clear, full tone that makes amps sound better, quieter - a 12AT7 in the PI is one; NOS tubes (including power tubes, no matter that the amp may not be being driven hard) also do so across the board of types, IMO."

 

[some_dude]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

How is the Mark IV in 15 watt mode? Will it do the heavy chug?

I was told with my Rivera K-100 I can remove the two inner tubes and get a thicker, more modern sound that sounds a bit more pushed! I was also told I can run the effects loop levels lower to assist! We'll see soon!

Most 100w class A/B amps let you pull one pair of tubes to drop it down to 50w. I haven't tried it with a Knucklehead, but it should work fine.

[/quote]I thought of Orange, but was afriad it could not handle heavy rock and they seem expensive for that they are. Maybe I am wrong. [/quote]

Oranges have their own sound and I love mine. That said, I wouldn't buy one without trying it first.

That said (x2) I'll be buying another Rectifier next year. I love the Oranges for hard rock and doom metal, but I miss the heavy chugga chugga sh*t of a good Rectifier for other types of music. I'll probably go with either a Single or a Roadster this time.... since I don't scoop my mids 100w is alot.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

It depends on the application.

Guys like Lew will preach all day long against anything more than 30w, but he's not competing against a 4 or 8x10 and a deathmetal drummer.

No I'm not...thank God. LOL! Lew

 

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Most 100w class A/B amps let you pull one pair of tubes to drop it down to 50w. I haven't tried it with a Knucklehead, but it should work fine.

I thought of Orange, but was afriad it could not handle heavy rock and they seem expensive for that they are. Maybe I am wrong. [/quote]

Oranges have their own sound and I love mine. That said, I wouldn't buy one without trying it first.

That said (x2) I'll be buying another Rectifier next year. I love the Oranges for hard rock and doom metal, but I miss the heavy chugga chugga sh*t of a good Rectifier for other types of music. I'll probably go with either a Single or a Roadster this time.... since I don't scoop my mids 100w is alot.[/QUOTE]

An older single rectifier or newer model? I had an older dual rec for a while but hate the buzz of rectifiers. Maybe the singles are better in that respect. I like a ton of mids as well.

Sometimes I think a modelling combo will be the best. I saw Geoff Tate live and his guitarists ran Line 6 Flextones and sounded GREAT.

 

[some_dude]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

An older single rectifier or newer model? I had an older dual rec for a while but hate the buzz of rectifiers. Maybe the singles are better in that respect. I like a ton of mids as well.

Doesn't matter.... whatever I happen across first that I can afford. I don't get hung up on the old vs new argument.

Honestly, I like the buzz. I love Orange, but I miss the buzz and the excessive bottom end of a Rectifier.

Oh, and I forgot to answer one of your questions;

How is the Mark IV in 15 watt mode? Will it do the heavy chug?

I had a Mark III that had the same option. Honestly, I thought the 15w mode was good. Volume wise it blew my 30w Oranges out of the water, and with the graphic EQ you can dial in a very good chug tone and re-balance the EQ curve so that you could simulate the excessive amount of bass that you'd get naturally in 75w mode (Mark IIIs were 75/15, Mark IVs are 85/15).

I found the key to getting a good tone out of a Mark was to leave most of the knobs pushed in. For the most part they're designed to thicken up single coils or give you a better low volume tone (through adding bass and resonance), yet your live tone would become indistinct if you didn't shut those features off with a Les Paul (or other humbucking guitar).

 

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

If the Rivera doesn't work out...I'll look into the Mesa MKIV.

I have to say I don't ever notice much difference between a 50 watt amp and 100 watt amp since the perceivable volume is so little. 15 watts on the Mesa is tempting though! It seems the MKIV has loads of options.

On cabinets. At this point...I can't find a 412 that sounds as good as the Ear Candy 212, no lie! Keep in mind I was a 412 nut!

 

[PaulReedSmith]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

dsl50...very versatile and sounds great even at lower volumes.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

No I'm not...thank God. LOL! Lew

Seriously - I envy the lighter styles of music in that aspect... you can get away with less volume/power, which leads to things usually being lighter, if not cheaper, and ears ringing less.

 

[34029324079]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

one amp in one hand, guitar case in the other. no worries on people stealing stuff, setting up is a breeze, back and ears dont hurt. jcm800 1x12 combo is kewel - a little diode clipping never hurt no one. the hydra headed heresy: he whom complains about diode clipping then invests in the best distortion pedal he can find :banana:

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

Seriously - I envy the lighter styles of music in that aspect... you can get away with less volume/power, which leads to things usually being lighter, if not cheaper, and ears ringing less.

It's a different world.

I played in original bands where I needed a 100 watt amp and had 50 minutes a night to play the dozen or so songs the band had written. The clubs were more for the music. It was all about getting numbers in the door and having a great show and distinguishing yourself and selling merch and blowing the other bands off the stage....

But I've also played in three-set bar bands. I've played in senarios where you know half the crowd couldn't tell you three songs you did at the end of the night. I've played in venues where the bartender would cut the power to the stage if you got too loud. I've played in bars where it was forbidden that we unplug the "Coors Light" neon sign that was shaped like a guitar so that we would have two electrical sources to plug the whole band into.

It's a different world....you have different goals and you should play them for very different reasons.

 

[doveman]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

I think ANY music can be mixed well enough through a PA system that it doesn't have to be painfully loud. Example: Any music that I can put my hands on can sound good through my stereo system ... moderately cranked.

A solid PA ... good quality stuff with lowend sub-woofers can make just about anything sound good without making your ears bleed. An amp with one good 1x12 mic'd can sound pretty much like a 8x12 with one of the speakers mic'd. A good monitor and a good soundman is necessary for sure.

I can tell you that I won't be going back to the 8x12 thing as long as I live. One 1x12 EVM12L will do it for me although I have recently purchased a 2x10 as an option ... either/or ... not both.

I know not everyone will agree with it ... but it's my opinion ... that's all.

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

I think ANY music can be mixed well enough through a PA system that it doesn't have to be painfully loud. Example: Any music that I can put my hands on can sound good through my stereo system ... moderately cranked.

A solid PA ... good quality stuff with lowend sub-woofers can make just about anything sound good without making your ears bleed. An amp with one good 1x12 mic'd can sound pretty much like a 8x12 with one of the speakers mic'd. A good monitor and a good soundman is necessary for sure.

I can tell you that I won't be going back to the 8x12 thing as long as I live. One 1x12 EVM12L will do it for me although I have recently purchased a 2x10 as an option ... either/or ... not both.

I know not everyone will agree with it ... but it's my opinion ... that's all.

Typically, the older guys that have had the experience dragging 4 x 12 cabs around and the heads to go with them are the ones that advocate a really good combo or a combo with the option of an external cab to be used only if necessary.

The first time I realized I could put two guitars in hardcases, a combo amp, a pedal board and a small suitcase of odds and ends into the trunk of my Saturn it all made sense to me.

And I go through the same thing with Fender Twins every few years; I play a couple and then realize that it's an amp with WAY more headroom than I will ever need and is MUCH heavier than I will want to heft every night.

 

[jerryjg]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

help me here cause theres spomething i don't get. You guys with Master volume Marshalls that switch from 100 watters to 50 watters.Isnt the master volume all you need to balnce out the sound on those things, or is a 100 watter still too loud even with the Master volume turned up? Or is it a question of better tone at a given volume?

 

[papersoul]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

help me here cause theres spomething i don't get. You guys with Master volume Marshalls that switch from 100 watters to 50 watters.Isnt the master volume all you need to balnce out the sound on those things, or is a 100 watter still too loud even with the Master volume turned up? Or is it a question of better tone at a given volume?

I think some feel a 50 watter will push the tubes harder, hence leading to a better tone. However, since the difference between 50 and 100 watts is about 3 db...the difference is very slight if at all. I had a VHT 100UL and it wasn't much quieter in 50 watt mode. You really couldn't notice the difference. I still couldn't move the master up much at all past the 100 watt level.

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: 100 watt tube amps just too loud?

help me here cause theres spomething i don't get. You guys with Master volume Marshalls that switch from 100 watters to 50 watters.Isnt the master volume all you need to balnce out the sound on those things, or is a 100 watter still too loud even with the Master volume turned up? Or is it a question of better tone at a given volume?

Adding a Master Volume does not immediately equate the same sound you get from a NMV amp, just quieter. They alter the physics of the circuit and the sound of the amp. There's just no way around it.

I think this is probably why I own a few NMV amps. Despite the fact that the do sound different because they're different amps, I do tend to use them for different venues depending on the size of the room.