3-Way Wiring like MSM1 Ibanez?

[Top-L]

Is it possible to wire this with a standard 3 way switch?

https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

Can someone post a wiring diagram (minus tone control) that would accomplish this?

According to video, the middle position is: "Two inner coils, out of phase, hum cancelling".

https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Is it possible to wire this with a standard 3 way switch?

https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

Can someone post a wiring diagram (minus tone control) that would accomplish this?

According to video, the middle position is: "Two inner coils, out of phase, hum cancelling".

https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

No, not with a standard 3 way switch. It doesn't have enough poles available to split coils on each pickup.

A 4PDT 3 way on-on-on switch could do this. That is what is used on the John Petrucci guitar, which also is a 3 way config where the middle position is splitcoils. However, that diagram would need tweaking for this scheme, because he doesn't want the middle position to be Out Of Phase, so his is wired differently than what you want.

No special wiring is needed to achieve the Out Of Phase sound in the case of the MSM1 scheme. Most guitars' two humbuckers are setup by default so that the inner coils of each pickup are the same magnetic polarity. Combining two coils that have the same magnetic polarity yields an Out Of Phase sound. The MSM1 simply chooses to split the humbuckers so those 2 coils are left active. For most other people looking to combine two splitcoils, they usually *don't* want the sound to be Out Of Phase, so they have to do extra work like flipping the magnet in one of the pickups, buying one pickup that is Reverse Wound /Reverse Polarity (RWRP) or other means which i will spare the details at this point. So if you pursue this with a 4DPT switch, you don't need to do anything special when splitting to the inner coils because you actually want the Out Of Phase sound that comes from doing that.

The attached pic below is a screenshot where the artist is saying the Out Of Phase sound is achieved by the two coils being *magnetically* out of phase, which supports my statements above. Vs being "electrically" Out Of Phase which involves wiring a pickup in a certain way.

If you can reply and confirm that you want to move forward by purchasing and using a 4DPT 3 way on-on-on switch to do this - which will replace your current 3 way toggle switch, then I can make a modified version of the Petrucci wiring that will work for what you want. So let me know.

Just my opinion, but if I was going to spend the time to get split coils combined, I would do it where i had flexibility to switch btw either Out Of Phase or normal phase, so I wasn't limited to just out of Phase. To do that, you would need to be willing to add a 2 way switch to your guitar, or convert one of the volume or tone pots to a push-pull, or replace the 3 way toggle with a rotary superswitch. And I could design a diagram to support any of these options. For some options, diagrams, diagrams already exist on the Internet.

 

[Top-L]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

If I was going to add a push/pull volume, wouldn't it be better to use it for a coil split of both pickups? In that sense, the middle position would be two single coils combined (phase unknown), and the guitar would have six tones overall.

The guitar in question has a single volume knob and a 3way toggle. I won't be drilling it.

So, regarding my options, I would either do ... 1) just the 3-way, and test whether I like the inner coils to be in or out of phase for cleans. (which apparently I can accomplish either electrically or by rotating the magnet. I dont know which I would like more.

Or.. 2) I would do a push/pull volume to coil split both humbuckers, and the guitar would have six sounds. I'm leaning towards the former because I already like the sweep and feel of the volume control and just need a good middle clean sound.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

If I was going to add a push/pull volume, wouldn't it be better to use it for a coil split of both pickups? In that sense, the middle position would be two single coils combined (phase unknown), and the guitar would have six tones overall.

The guitar in question has a single volume knob and a 3way toggle. I won't be drilling it.

So, regarding my options, I would either do ... 1) just the 3-way, and test whether I like the inner coils to be in or out of phase for cleans. (which apparently I can accomplish either electrically or by rotating the magnet. I dont know which I would like more.

Or.. 2) I would do a push/pull volume to coil split both humbuckers, and the guitar would have six sounds. I'm leaning towards the former because I already like the sweep and feel of the volume control and just need a good middle clean sound.

Ah, with only 1 volume pot, and wanting to keep your current standard 3 way toggle, and you do not wish to drill new holes, you would need a 2nd push-pull or switch to be able to flip between Out Of Phase (OoP) and normal phase in split coil mode, and you don't have other slots/drillholes to accomodate that 2nd switch... since the volume pot has theoretically already been converted to a push-pull which is already tasked with flipping between splitcoil mode or full humbucker mode. You'd have to entertain replacing the 3 way toggle with a rotary superswitch to do A) split or full humbuckers & B) in-phase or out of phase.

 

[Top-L]

Ah, with only 1 volume pot, and wanting to keep your current standard 3 way toggle, and you do not wish to drill new holes, you would need a 2nd push-pull or switch to be able to flip between Out Of Phase (OoP) and normal phase in split coil mode, and you don't have other slots/drillholes to accomodate that 2nd switch... since the volume pot has theoretically already been converted to a push-pull which is already tasked with flipping between splitcoil mode or full humbucker mode. You'd have to entertain replacing the 3 way toggle with a rotary superswitch to do A) split or full humbuckers & B) in-phase or out of phase.

Is there a current wiring diagram for a JP guitar with just three sounds? I'm undecided on whether inner coils should be in or out of phase. Apparently that can be accomplished by rotating the magnet?

I just want to keep it simple. Will buy another 3way switch but dont want a push/pull vol.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

also, keep in mind that your guitar will *by default* be Out Of Phase when you split to the inner coils. If you want the inner coils to be in normal phase, that is when additional actions would need to be taken to achieve that.

I tried explaining in my 1st reply but i understand that is a tough subject to grasp fully just through written words

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Is there a current wiring diagram for a JP guitar with just three sounds? I'm undecided on whether inner coils should be in or out of phase. Apparently that can be accomplished by rotating the magnet?

I just want to keep it simple. Will buy another 3way switch but dont want a push/pull vol.

There is a JP diagram - but like i mentionee b4:
1. It requires a 4PDT on-on-on switch to replace your standard 3 way toggle switch
2. John's has special wiring and actions taken, so that the two inner coils are NOT OoP. That diagram would have to be modded in order to achieve OoP inner coils, which I could do, but you'd need to be willing to purchase and use a 4DPT on-on-on switch.

 

[Top-L]

also, keep in mind that your guitar will *by default* be Out Of Phase when you split to the inner coils. If you want the inner coils to be in normal phase, that is when additional actions would need to be taken to achieve that.

I tried explaining in my 1st reply but i understand that is a tough subject to grasp fully just through written words

No, you explained it well, I was just hoping for a wiring diagram with one 3-way.

Thank you.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

No, you explained it well, I was just hoping for a wiring diagram with one 3-way.

Thank you.

Ok. I think i might have misunderstood what you asked for. Let me check with you

Are you asking for any diagram (not just a JP guitar diagram) that uses a normal 3 way toggle and a push-pull, to achieve inner coils that are out of phase? The answer to that is yes, and *no* additional action is required by you like flipping a magnet or roating one pickup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

If you're asking for the same as above but with the innercoils in normal phase, then the answer is also yes BUT you have to take some additional actions like flipping the magnet or rotating one pup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

Let me know which you want to start with, and i will dig one up or make one as needed.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Working on two diagrams for you, will load up shortly.

 

[Top-L]

Ok. I think i might have misunderstood what you asked for. Let me check with you

Are you asking for any diagram (not just a JP guitar diagram) that uses a normal 3 way toggle and a push-pull, to achieve inner coils that are out of phase? The answer to that is yes, and *no* additional action is required by you like flipping a magnet or roating one pickup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

If you're asking for the same as above but with the innercoils in normal phase, then the answer is also yes BUT you have to take some additional actions like flipping the magnet or rotating one pup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

Let me know which you want to start with, and i will dig one up or make one as needed.

The diagram I am looking for has a 3way switch (on on on). I believe, I will need to buy a new 3 way to do this.

The middle position is the inner coils of the humbuckers. As I don't know whether I want them in or out of phase, I will try it both ways and keep it wired the way I prefer.

There is no push/pull vol.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

The diagram I am looking for has a 3way switch (on on on). I believe, I will need to buy a new 3 way to do this.

The middle position is the inner coils of the humbuckers. As I don't know whether I want them in or out of phase, I will try it both ways and keep it wired the way I prefer.

There is no push/pull vol.

Ok, so no push-pull. Then yes, your current 3 way switch needs to be replaced with the 4PDT on-on-on switch that i described earlier.

For you to even see what "in phase" inner coils sounds like, you will have to rotate your Neck pickup 180 degrees and then follow the stock JP diagram attached below. I recommend doing that only after 1st trying out what Out Of Phase sounds like, since your guitar is setup to do Out Of Phase by default and so you don't have to rotate the pickup twice. To try the "out of phase" sound, you will need a modified version of the JP diagram that i attached below. I can do that diagram mod for you later when i have a chance and post it up for you.

 

[Artie]

No special wiring is needed to achieve the Out Of Phase sound in the case of the MSM1 scheme. Most guitars' two humbuckers are setup by default so that the inner coils of each pickup are the same magnetic polarity. Combining two coils that have the same magnetic polarity yields an Out Of Phase sound.

Hey Jack; That's not quite correct. I think you may be confusing OOP with humbucking. The only way you get out-of-phase, (reverse polarity, actually), is if you specifically wire in a reverse polarity switch. Selecting any two coils of a standard dual-humbucker guitar will always be in-phase. However, if you select the two inner coils, or the two outer coils, they won't be humbucking. Take the Triple-Shot ring for example. No matter how you place the switches, all coils will be the same polarity. Some combinations though, won't be humbucking. Make sense?

P.S. And rotating a pickup 180 deg's in it's mount does nothing. It doesn't change it's polarity, phase, or humbucking. It's purely cosmetic. Like Slash did with his zebra's.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hey Jack; That's not quite correct. I think you may be confusing OOP with humbucking. The only way you get out-of-phase, (reverse polarity, actually), is if you specifically wire in a reverse polarity switch. Selecting any two coils of a standard dual-humbucker guitar will always be in-phase. However, if you select the two inner coils, or the two outer coils, they won't be humbucking. Take the Triple-Shot ring for example. No matter how you place the switches, all coils will be the same polarity. Some combinations though, won't be humbucking. Make sense?

P.S. And rotating a pickup 180 deg's in it's mount does nothing. It doesn't change it's polarity, phase, or humbucking. It's purely cosmetic. Like Slash did with his zebra's.

Artie, thank you - you're abosulutely correct, and I just had some sideways notion about this in my head today for some reason. Even though I know better.

I'll go back and reassess what the OP's options are.

BTW, when I talk about rotating pickups, its always in combination with wiring the South coil as hot, even though I don't necessarily always mention it. However, yes, that is a solution for hum-canceling, not in phase or out of phase. Chalk that one up as well to my sideways thinking today.

 

[Top-L]

Hey Jack; That's not quite correct. I think you may be confusing OOP with humbucking. The only way you get out-of-phase, (reverse polarity, actually), is if you specifically wire in a reverse polarity switch. Selecting any two coils of a standard dual-humbucker guitar will always be in-phase. However, if you select the two inner coils, or the two outer coils, they won't be humbucking. Take the Triple-Shot ring for example. No matter how you place the switches, all coils will be the same polarity. Some combinations though, won't be humbucking. Make sense?

P.S. And rotating a pickup 180 deg's in it's mount does nothing. It doesn't change it's polarity, phase, or humbucking. It's purely cosmetic. Like Slash did with his zebra's.

So the question remains, how do I get an out of phase, with two inner coils like the guitar in the original post?

There is no additional switch, just the 3way.

Edit: I found a collection of diagrams on the dimarzio site. It appears that rotating one of the pickups will affect phase (the diagrams specify that the orientation of the neck will vary.)

https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.ne...witching_0.pdf

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

So the question remains, how do I get an out of phase, with two inner coils like the guitar in the original post?

There is no additional switch, just the 3way.

Much easier now that Artie helped clear up my confusion. We wire one of your two pickups out of phase. Hot wire becomes ground, ground becomes hot. But you still need to replace your stock standard 3 way toggle w a 4PDT on-on-on 3 way switch in order to get the coilsplits in middle position.

BTW, wiring one pickup out of phase has no effect except when combined with another pickup. So positions 1 and 3 are not effected by this mod.

 

[Artie]

That gets tricky. I'll chew on it with Jack.

 

[Artie]

Wait a sec. Now I get it. Look closely at the video at 3:16. (Or, just look at the guitar pic on Ibby's website.) They've rotated the neck pickup 180 deg's, so that the neck screw coil is on the inside. So, when you select the "inner" coils, you've got one stud coil and one screw coil. In other words, a normal humbucker. This is the "Slutbucker." Just done in a different way. Nothing is out-of-phase. When he says "magnetically out-of-phase", he's just using misleading terminology. It isn't.

I have this diagram already done. You can do it with a standard 3-way. Piece-'o-cake. I just gotta find it. Gimme a sec. Or two.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Wait a sec. Now I get it. Look closely at the video at 3:16. (Or, just look at the guitar pic on Ibby's website.) They've rotated the neck pickup 180 deg's, so that the neck screw coil is on the inside. So, when you select the "inner" coils, you've got one stud coil and one screw coil. In other words, a normal humbucker. This is the "Slutbucker." Just done in a different way. Nothing is out-of-phase. When he says "magnetically out-of-phase", he's just using misleading terminology. It isn't.

I have this diagram already done. You can do it with a standard 3-way. Piece-'o-cake. I just gotta find it. Gimme a sec. Or two.

I agree that the Neck pup is rotated so that when the 2 are inner coils are combined, they are hum-canceling. But i am not sure we can take the leap to say because of that, that Ibanez did not *also* wire one of the pickups out of phase.

the method i described in my last reply is very easily something that ibanez could have easily done to get inner coils out of phase. I am hesitant to say the artist and Ibanez were that far left in describing what the middle position does.

If you want to try the hum-canceling, in-phase inner coil splits using a 4DPT on-on-on, this Dimarzio diagram will do that. The wiring color code is probably Dimarzio but i havent spent the time to verify it yet.

 

[Top-L]

Unfortunately, no a standard 3way. But I was already planning to get one of the EP1111 switches.

If you look at all the dimarzio diagrams, they are very specific re the rotation of the neck pickup. The rotation must affect something other than which coil is physically on the inside. My guess is that rotating the pickup will put it out of phase with the other one.

So if you want them in phase, the pickup wire of both pickups towards the controls.

If you want them out of phase, the neck pickup is rotated 180, and of course you have to modify the wiring so the other coil is selected, because the physical rotation changes which one is on the inside.

Yes, this explains it. because the coils of a humbucker are opposite wind and polarity, this means that the inner two coils when combined will be hum cancelling and in phase. If you rotate one of the pickup, now the two inner coils are out of phase.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/l...0each%20other.