Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

On many strats you simply cannot do double stop bends or unison bends because the string you're bending with pull the bridge to cause the string you're not bending to go out of tune.

That's due to the design of a floating bridge. Angling the claw doesn't solve that problem. (I kept my strat claws angled for a few years and I still had the issue) The only way to stop this from happening is to deck the trem.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Lew, you're changing topic here. The argument you quoted above has some degree of plausibility, and could be worthy of looking in to further. Expansion springs such as those used here are not constant tension, and the force required to expand them can increase exponentially as they near their elastic limits. This could allow for a change in stability when bending a string on a floating trem if the increase in force required to further expand the elongated spring outweighed the decreased resistance of the shortened side. It could be a similar effect to adding additional springs and loosening the claw to float the trem in the same position.

Another point could be argued regarding the distribution of pressure on the fulcrum screws, and although so slight as to be largely insignificant, a slight amount of tighter adjustment on the treble side to balance force on the block inverse to string tension would distribute the pressure (and therby friction) more evenly across the fulcrum points.

Problem is, neither of these points involve anything remotely related to the topic in discussion. So let's stay on point, shall we?

When you set a trem floating, will angling the trem claw to alter distribution of force across the block affect a change in how much the 1st and 2nd strings sharpen relative to the 3rd?

1 - If you stretch a string by a given amount, it will increase in pitch by a proportional amount (which depends on the string's core diameter and the material's modulus of elasticity). Every time you stretch it by a given amount, you will see the same increase in pitch.

2 - If the fulcrum points of a tremolo do not change (ie, one side doesn't lift away from the posts as you engage the bar), and the saddle positions remain constant relative to the fulcrum points, then when you pivot the bridge back by the same amount, each string will be elongated to the same degree.

So please explain to me, if the you pull the bridge back enough to raise the 3rd string 3 half steps, and the 1st and second string saddles remain in constant positions relative the fulcrum points and 3rd string, how does altering the lateral distribution of tension on the back side of the tremolo block affect a difference in pitch shift in the 1st and 2nd strings?

You repeatedly reference Carl and Eric as great players, and they are. I've set up far more guitars than the two of them combined (it is my profession), and have a much more advanced understanding of the physics of musical instruments as well, but that's neither here nor there. To quote a particular scientist whom I respect and admire -

"If you have to give the pedigree of who is presenting the evidence, then the evidence is not speaking for itself, as it should."

So please, as much as I admire Carl and Eric for their musicianship, I really don't care much what irrational beliefs or flawed associations of causality they prescribe to in relation to guitar setups. I know how this stuff works, both from study and decades of full time experience. If you wish to continue arguing this topic, let's please stick to the original point and argue the case rather than reference who subscribes to whatever notions.
 
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Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

That's due to the design of a floating bridge. Angling the claw doesn't solve that problem. (I kept my strat claws angled for a few years and I still had the issue) The only way to stop this from happening is to deck the trem.

That's the way to stop it completely, yes. And that's the way most of my Strats are set. The tremolo can't even be used.

But angling the claw EXACTLY in the way Carl Verheyan teaches it, does allow me to use a FLOATING TREMOLO on a couple of my Strats and still bend notes easily without the tremolo moving foward and making me have to bend the note across the fretboard further than feels comfortable to raise it to the desired pitch.

And double stop bends and pedal steel licks, like holding a high E at the 12th fret and bending the B up to C# (the sixth) and releasing back down to a B, then holding an E and a B at the 12 fret of the E and B string and then bending a F# up to a G# (the third of the E chord) , are more easily done without the pedal notes going flat.

And that, to me, is one of the advantages of angling the claw or using three springs on the bass side as Eric Johnson does it.

Eric uses four springs: One in middle, One under the low E, One under the high E and One between the middle spring and the spring under the low E. He leaves out the spring between the B and G string.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Eric uses four springs: One in middle, One under the low E, One under the high E and One between the middle spring and the spring under the low E. He leaves out the spring between the B and G string.

You can clearly see that in this video when Eric picks up his Strat and turns it around so you can see the back.

It's a good Q & A session too. Worth watching.

 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

I prefer Sumatra, French pressed and strong with ether a little honey or some Irish Cream! Oh Ya, come on week end. Is it still Tuesday? OH MAN........
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

You can clearly see that in this video when Eric picks up his Strat and turns it around so you can see the back.

It's a good Q & A session too. Worth watching.


Ok.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Eric Johnson gets accused of talking BS because he hears and senses some things that no one else can.

But he's not talking BS.

Some of us can hear and feel those subtle things too....and some of us can't.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

And some of us believe we hear things which amount to superstition, and would never be able to accurately identify in a controlled blind test.

I was at lunch with a colleague who works on Eric's guitars on occasion, and he shared a story of some component changes he did for Eric where he agreed to do a blind test. The results were indeed impressive, and Eric was able to accurately identify differences at so small a degree that few players could stand a chance to identify. There was another factor in the changes however, in which he was certain he could identify a difference but in the end could not.

Shaquille O'Neil is a phenomenal athlete. His endorsement of the supernatural effects of the Power Balance bracelet on improving strength and balance does not however trump science and objective evidence to prove the product as anything more than a placebo.

Beyond the irrelevant endorsements and back to the world of physical laws. This topic is not one of subtle tonal effects and individual perceptions, but a measurable and easily observable effect on diviations in pitch.

How does angling the trem claw lead to relative differences in sharpening between strings?
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

How does angling the trem claw lead to relative differences in sharpening between strings?

Couldn't tell you. I'm an artist, guitarist and musician...not a physicist.

Where does original music come from?

Where does poetry come from?

Where does art come from?

I don't know. But for me - it does.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Wow,
If I could only get all of us in a room, together, just one day, we could sort the bull from the metaphysical together and make our theories known and shown, that is the only way to put this to rest. It is like Democrats vs. Republicans only worse, politicians have different views, we are aguing amoung ourselves not about different views per se, but one thing only, is an angled claw needed to do what the "Carl" team says it does. My side of the fence has in fact practiced several different ways of doing it, without any difference. So the Carl Team is not wrong, that way works, but so does every other way, thus my side gets all science about it cause the laws of physics can't be changed, and it just seems so wrong for people to actually PAY for an angled claw. I repectfully submit, this is much worse that snake oil. After a few days, people realize the snake oil didn't work.
Steve B
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

I'm not even arguing. There's nothing to argue about.

The method I use seems to work best for my playing style and allows me to do the double stop licks I like to use and stay relatively in tune. Can there be any argument about that?

No. It works.

And at the same time, I openly admit that it's not the only way to set up a floating tremolo, and have said that all along.

The method you use works for your playing style but it's clearly not the only way to set up a floating tremolo either and the proof is that my method works equally well for me.

There's any number of ways to set up a floating tremolo and we all do it a little differently and that's the way it should be.

That's about all there is to it.

What's to argue about?

Live and let live.
 
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Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Of course I have my reasons for preferring increased spring tension on the bass side of the tremolo, either by using four springs on the bass side of the trem (my first Eric Johnson Strat was set up that way) or by angling the tremolo claw.

1. Angling the claw is easier for me to set up the predetermined notes I want to hear when I pull up on the tremolo: G to A#, B to C# and E to F.

2. Angling the claw takes less time for me to set up.

3. I like the feel of the tremolo better.

4. It seems to make string bending easier in that the tremolo doesn't seem to give as much and detune the strings when I do wide bends with my fingers.

5. Since the tremolo doesn't seem to give as much when I use my fingers to bend notes, the angled claw method seems to help with double stop and pedal steel bends where I'm holding one or two notes and bending a third note against those I'm holding and which I don't want to go flat.

But again, if someone else plays in that style and wants to use a different method of setting up their trem that works better for them, then by all means: do.

It's your guitar and your music. Play it any way you please. I'm not going to attack you for doing it your own way.

That would be stupid!
 
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Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]


Can't sum it up any better than this.

Works like a tiger rock.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Well we can measure it.

If you can make chords me more in tune using a compensated claw setup then you should be able to specifically measure the frequency (half-tone and offset) of each string, and do that twice for a compensated claw settings and a straight setting.
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Well we can measure it.

If you can make chords me more in tune using a compensated claw setup then you should be able to specifically measure the frequency (half-tone and offset) of each string, and do that twice for a compensated claw settings and a straight setting.

Everyone should try it both ways. Straight or Angled. Try both methods and see which one you like.

And really: what's so great about straight that it's the only way to go even if both methods do sound the same and do the same thing and feel the same?

Maybe some people just like the look of angled. :)
 
Re: Another Reason Compensated Claw is a MYTH

Digression again. The point in question is simple and focused - does angling the trem claw affect a difference in pitch increase between strings when you pull a floating trem back?

The answer is not one of personal preference, it is an unarguable, impersonal, objective fact - no, it does not.

You can go about doing your own setups however you like - no one is attacking anyone over that. If someone asks a specific question which has a definitive, absolute, black and white answer, it simply astounds me that such a debate can follow.

Again, angling the spring claw has no effect on how the pitch on one string changes relative to another. Do your setups however you like for feel, looks, peace of mind, whatever, but this singular point is an immutable fact which remains true regardless of whether you believe it or not.
 
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