Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

[FuelGTRX]

My Les Paul Standard has Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors in it. I bought it used like that. Right now I have a Pearly Gates in the bridge position and an Alnico II Pro in the neck position. Recently I installed a Pearly Gates in my strat. I wired it up with 500K pots with a typical .022 disc cap. Now I know guitars are going to sound different from each other, but the PG in the strat has considerably more output and is a bit more open sounding. Could the Orange Drops be choking the sound of my Les Paul a bit? I'm not sure what value they are, the coding on the side of them does not list the rating.

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Orange drops are polypropylene caps, I much prefer paper in oil capacitors like the vitamin Q's or Russian K40-y to the OD's.

IMHO PIO Tone caps are warm crisp and have nice woody vocal Tone for the most part.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

The difference from the capacitor is incredibly much smaller than the different in guitars, even within the same model. Comparing a Strat to a LP and blaming the difference on the capacitor isn't going to lead anywhere.

Get some crocodile clips and it takes you less than 10 seconds to compare the capacitors 1:1.

Myself, I also like the PG in a trem strat much more than in a LP.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

on the side of the orange drop it will probably say "223" or "473"
the first two numbers are the value, the next is how many places you move the decimal point so 223 = .022, 473 = .047

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

The difference from the capacitor is incredibly much smaller than the different in guitars, even within the same model.
<snip>

I think there is a big difference between they way various types capacitors sound. Even the paper in oil caps all have their own individual Tonal variations and will respond differently to different pu's & pots.

I have also done the alligator clip test and swapped out plenty of caps, and have heard for my self what they sound like so I am not just repeating what I heard on some forum.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

In a guitar tone circuit I don't hear any big difference between a Sprague Orange Drop or an expensive oil cap. The output of the cap goes to ground and since the treble that is being rolled off goes to ground the cap can't influence the tone and there's nothing to hear, IMO. If the output of the cap was passing the signal on and it stayed in the audio signal path there might be an audible diff between two caps of different compositions even if they both measured exactly the same - both .022 mfd. for example. But that's not the case in a simple guitar tone circuit where the output of the cap goes to ground.


I asked Rick Turner if he could hear a difference and here's his answer:

"Lew,

1) It is possible that there could be minor differences, but the cap is not literally in the signal path in a passive treble rolloff tone control. It just drains highs off to ground as part of a low pass LRC circuit. In order to really hear any differences, you'd have to try different caps that had been very carefully measured to you knew that the capacitance was well within 1 or 2 percent from brand to brand. I think that could account for people hearing differences...there being actual differences in capacitance among the devices.

There are most definitely differences in caps that are passing the signal you're listening to. The high end audio press bubbles over with this vs. that cap., and they're not all smoking jimson weed.

2) I tend to use polypropylene or ceramics. I also tend to go light on the value so the pot is more useful over it's entire range."

 

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I think there is a big difference between they way various types capacitors sound. Even the paper in oil caps all have their own individual Tonal variations and will respond differently to different pu's & pots.

I have also done the alligator clip test and swapped out plenty of caps, and have heard for my self what they sound like so I am not just repeating what I heard on some forum.

I have 6 of these suckers on a rotary switch and I rate the difference as barely audible.

I do agree that the pickup makes a difference. My antiquity humbuckers make it much easier to hear than SSL1s which basically don't care.

(ETA: that is with the tone pot not engaged, aka "base sound")

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I have 6 of these suckers on a rotary switch and I rate the difference as barely audible.

I do agree that the pickup makes a difference. My antiquity humbuckers make it much easier to hear than SSL1s which basically don't care.

(ETA: that is with the tone pot not engaged, aka "base sound")

Agreed....There's barely any audible/tonal difference that I've ever heard in my experimenting..

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I guess "Tone is in the ear of the beholder" and just like tastes in food and music opinions vary.

I have tested dozens of Genuine 1950's Bumble Bees, 60's Black Beauties, Vitamin Q's and Russian K-40's which are all highly acclaimed by those who know Tone and are all paper in oil caps.

I have also tested mylar, ceramic, polypropylene, and Teflon capacitors.

There is a difference in Tone and the way they respond in a passive analog circuit. Some people can hear the difference and some can't just like some people can't hear when their guitar is out of Tune and some can.

Why does Luxe use the Russian K-40's inside their vintage Bee repro's instead of some cheap film cap??? Because PIO sound better

Gibson uses fake Bees with Polyfilm caps buried inside and they sound like crap that is why LP players swap them out for better Tone.

Think what you want, but that does not change the fact that PIO caps are simply the best for Guitar Tone bar none.

peace, jonesy

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Shouldn't have taken the bait... :lmao: ...just had a suspicious feeling about this thread!

 

[DMyers77]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Does the Les Paul also have 500k pots?

I cannot hear a difference between types of caps of the same value. I can hear a difference between caps of different values.

IMO, the rumor that expensive caps sound better is due to their tighter tolerances. Replacing a cheap ceramic cap that is +80%/-20% of it's stated value with an orange drop, bumblebee, etc rated at +/- 2% of it's rated value can make a difference if the cheap cap is way off. In this case, using a .047 cap, the cheap cap could measure anywhere from .039 to .084, while the better cap will measure between .046 and .048.

That is potentially a big difference.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I guess "Tone is in the ear of the beholder" and just like tastes in food and music opinions vary.

I have tested dozens of Genuine 1950's Bumble Bees, 60's Black Beauties, Vitamin Q's and Russian K-40's which are all highly acclaimed by those who know Tone and are all paper in oil caps.

I have also tested mylar, ceramic, polypropylene, and Teflon capacitors.

There is a difference in Tone and the way they respond in a passive analog circuit. Some people can hear the difference and some can't just like some people can't hear when their guitar is out of Tune and some can.

Why does Luxe use the Russian K-40's inside their vintage Bee repro's instead of some cheap film cap??? Because PIO sound better

Gibson uses fake Bees with Polyfilm caps buried inside and they sound like crap that is why LP players swap them out for better Tone.

Think what you want, but that does not change the fact that PIO caps are simply the best for Guitar Tone bar none.

peace, jonesy

You can also believe that leprechauns, dragons, and the Tooth Fairy are real if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're fooling yourself.

Like Rick Turner says (via Lew), a tone cap in a guitar is a passive bleed-to-ground. It's not even in the signal path. What you are hearing coming out of your amp is the signal that the cap rejected; in other words, it's not colored by the cap AT ALL. Combine this with the fact that the current flowing through a passive electric guitar is extremely weak - far less than what any of these caps are rated for - and you get a circuit where the type of cap is nearly irrelevant.

If the current were flowing THROUGH the cap and into the amp, or if you had a preamp in there before the tone circuit, then we'd have something to talk about.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. If you're enjoying the placebo effect and sense of elitism ("some people can hear the difference") your expensive caps are giving you, by all means carry on.

 

[Surgeon]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I paid for "higher-end" caps once and I'm not going to pay more again (at least more than what Orange-drops go for)... Even if there was a slight difference (which I sadly don't hear), once I engage the overdrive or distortion and the band kicks in, I don't notice anything at all between two different les pauls, imagine between two different caps in the same guitar... maybe with the same guitar, played clean and all alone one can hear something (even though my humble self can't) but in a band situation?? Come on now... and to me that's where tone really counts.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

My ears are pretty shotty in the highend from years of playing....Maybe the folks with younger ears can hear the differences? I just don't hear any real difference between the same value tone caps in my guitars...I make my own "No Load" tone pots...When the pot is on 10,I do hear a brighter guitar because there's no more loading of the pot resistance and the cap...

Yeah, but (as I'm sure you know) comparing a standard tone to a no-load tone is not nearly the same as comparing two caps of the same value!

I'd like to try a no-load tone in a couple of my guitars. I have a new Strat that's pretty bright, and it's making me realize how dark the other one is Maybe a no-load tone in the dark one will even them out a bit.

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Hmm, I wonder??? :scratchch

Can you hear a difference between.....

a 500K and a 300K pot?

a tube amp and a ss amp?

9's vs 10's with guitar strings?

A crappy patch cord vs a good quality one?

Eric Johnson claims to be able to hear the difference between different batteries in his pedals? (not sure about that one )

I think some of you have to big of egos to admit that someone else may actually be able to hear a difference when you cannot. Or you are afraid to admit you are not the only ones that have been tinkering and playing guitars for 30 years. I will be 49 Sunday and I still have the same wire cutters and needle nose pliers my Dad gave me when I was 12-13 years old. I learn new things everyday, but have not learned much from you guys except that the Testosterone level is very high at this forum and many of you are very close minded.

Carry on...

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Yeah, but (as I'm sure you know) comparing a standard tone to a no-load tone is not nearly the same as comparing two caps of the same value!

I'd like to try a no-load tone in a couple of my guitars. I have a new Strat that's pretty bright, and it's making me realize how dark the other one is Maybe a no-load tone in the dark one will even them out a bit.

Matt.....Actually I only use the No Load tone pots in my darker humbucking guitars like my LP and the SG...My single coil strats and Teles don't need it..And yes,good point about the comparisons...These days I can finally say,I just play and enjoy it..I spend alot more time playing now than tweaking stuff...

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

+100 on this

i find the sprage orange as having some harsh high end. I use regular ceramic disk caps if i haven't at hand PIO caps (I like the Vitamin Q).

Wow, I have heard Billy from RS Guitarworks say the same exact thing about the Orange drops being harsh on the top end. Well at least there is 3 of us in the world that think PIO sound warmer, and smoother and provide better Tone. Maybe it's not in our imaginations after all

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

As of right now your poll shows that 80% of the players can hear a difference between the different kind of caps of the same value??

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=179280

 

[Stratman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I disagree! Most of you got it wrong...

The reason I choose higher end caps, is because I can more easily make the guitar sing.

Other than that particular reason, there is little tone difference to be heard!

 

[Baltar]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

tone is personal taste. mine is near fender tweed and bf era territory and sc strats only.
on a bf+strat setup, the trick is imo to achieve crisp airy highs, without being penetrant.
back to topic: i can't say much to ODs other than 715, but those sound definately
crappy to me. to be honest i did experiment more on amps than guitars. My guitars all
have old (low dc capable) mallories installed.
every amp i had some time with sounded more airy to me when i removed the 715 and
put in even cheapo wima mks or xicon pp.
however, to whoever hooks up on trying caps to find out differences should consider
to be veeery patient. depending on the materials used, caps age differently and end
up sounding different as how they did when you soldered them in.
peace
b