Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Damn...Apparently a few people REALLY care about a measly ~250K difference for a passive volume control.

I'd hate to see how much peoples' panties get into a wad when they realize one of their 250K pots is really 300K because of a +/- 10% tolerance. 300K pots is blasphemy with Fender single coils.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

"Can't you approximate the effect of a 250k pot by just turning down the volume ever so slightly?"

NO. For two reasons. One, a volume pot is NOT a rheostat. The load the pickup sees to ground does not change. It is wired to the hot lug, and the hot lug is not soldered to the wiper as it would be in a rheostat. Second, when you turn a pot down, it introduces a series resistance into the equation, i.e. the resistance between the hot lug and the wiper. So when you turn a 500k pot down to about 7.5, which if it's an audio pot would be about 250k from wiper to ground, the pickup still sees 500k, and there is a 250k resistor now in series with your pickup's output on the way to the amp. Not at all the same as a 250k pot turned up all the way.

I use various resistors across pots which I have measured to get a resistance I want. That goes from about 200k all the way up to 1M or more. Various pickups in various guitars sound better with different resistances. PAFs to my ear generally sound like icepicks with anything approaching 500k. 225-300k works much better. JB? Most guitars like them between 250 and 400k. Hotter, darker pickups generally need closer to an actual 500k MEASURED resistance (not just the number on the casing which means F all). On neck humbuckers, I use 1M religiously unless they are unusual types like 40ga wire, firebirds, etc.

So, since I've actually done this more times than I can count, including wiring guitars so each pickup selector switch position sees a different resistance, I'm NOT asking whether anyone thinks it's "ok" to do that.

Thank you for this post. Some hard facts finally! We have so many people here assuming that turning down 500K's exactly duplicates a 250K, and passing that wisdom along without anything to back it up. In spite of those claims, my ears have told me that there is an audible difference.

And thank you again for adding your knowledgeable and experienced voice to the view that some bridge HB's are bright, and some good players prefer to use 250K/300K pots with them to tame the abundance of treble. It certainly doesn't 'throw away' our tones. A '59B with 500K's has far more treble on tap than anyone could possibly use. Why not trim off some of that up front with a warmer pot?

Like you, I also try to get more treble in my neck HB's, and use 1-megs for my LP neck HB's. That's what's always baffled me: the proponents for maximum treble in bridge PU's, are content with neck HB's that I consider too warm and muffled. Thru a combination of 1-meg pots, hybrid coils, and spin-a-splits, my neck HB's are brighter than just about anybody 's here. I don't understand how a tone that is considered totally unacceptable for a bridge PU, is fine for the neck. People can't tell what PU you're using when they listen to you. Either the tone's good or it isn't. Play a clip of a guitar with a warm tone, and tell them it's the bridge PU. Too dark and muffled, they'll hate it. They'll assume the tone's been 'killed' by 250K's. Tell them it's the neck PU, and they'll think it's good. Does anyone see the fallacy in this type of thinking?
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Quite honestly I am sick of arguing with people on this board. Lew have you ever considered some of us dont want a trebelly tone? My tone is in the low mids, I can't stand HIs I think they are brash and harsh. But that is just me and my 250Ks take just enough of the brightness of for me. It isn't thrown away if you didn't want it in the first place - Live and let live buddy.

+1. I'm sensitive to treble too, or maybe my ears aren't blown out. Some guys know how to EQ Strats and get great tones (some of my favorite players use(d) Strats). But a lot of guys are clueless, and have shrill, schreechy Strats that are just annoying to listen to. I've walked out on live bands because the guitarist (who may be a very good player) has got so much treble it gives me a headache. I've got CD's where Strat players using bridge SC's have ruined otherwise good songs with nails-on-a-chalkboard tones. Do they have ear wax build up and can't tell how top-heavy they are? It's not just Strats (although they're usually the worst offenders); you can overdo treble in the bridge PU of an LP too, some guys manage to do that.

Bridge or neck, I like a full, rich sound with some bite. There's an acceptable EQ range for guitars, and to me it doesn't matter which PU it is.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

We're all members of this forum because we take our personal tone quests to the edge of sanity. Everybody likes different amps, different settings for said amps, different pickups, pots, caps, cables, whatever. No two people have the same ear. The important thing is that when you're playing you are confident in YOUR sound. That confidence is perceived by your audience if you play live and suddenly nobody gives a damn about your preference for ceramic caps or your hatred towards monster rock cables.

Keep that in mind, lest we forget that it's about the music.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Disclaimer: I'm in no way taking a side in this argument. Just an impartial observer and B.S. philosophe.

You're clip was great btw, Lew.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

All right Bluesman, put up or shut up. Here's me doing Hideaway:



Now let's hear you play something.

This made my week….and is a strong front runner for the month already!
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

We're all members of this forum because we take our personal tone quests to the edge of sanity. Everybody likes different amps, different settings for said amps, different pickups, pots, caps, cables, whatever. No two people have the same ear. The important thing is that when you're playing you are confident in YOUR sound. That confidence is perceived by your audience if you play live and suddenly nobody gives a damn about your preference for ceramic caps or your hatred towards monster rock cables.

Keep that in mind, lest we forget that it's about the music.

716.gif
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Great! When can we expect to hear some clips of your full, rich sound with some bite?

So you're pretty much out of gas arguing against 250K's then, especially now that Ray Barbee has weighed in. Nothing like one of the big boys to level the playing field. I know, why don't you pester Ray for clips, and you can tell him how he's 'killed' his tone with those infernal 250K's.

I must say, I'm flattered by your infatuation with my playing, but I'm getting uncomfortable that you have some sort of gay crush thing developing.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Thanks guys. That clip was from the International Blues Challenge a couple of years ago.

That's my buddy Ken Mergentine on harp and my brother Bruce Collins on drums. Larry Cotten on bass and Steve Flowers on Keyboards.

The IBC posted the clip on YOUTUBE but they got the title of the song wrong. It's obviously "Hideaway".

I'm going to enter it again this year but I think I'll do it as single...not with a band.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

So you're pretty much out of gas arguing against 250K's then, especially now that Ray Barbee has weighed in. Nothing like one of the big boys to level the playing field. I know, why don't you pester Ray for clips, and you can tell him how he's 'killed' his tone with those infernal 250K's.

I must say, I'm flattered by your infatuation with my playing, but I'm getting uncomfortable that you have some sort of gay crush thing developing.

You know what's funny "Bluesman"?

Everything you keep accusing me of is exactly what you are guilty of doing - not me.

In psychology it's called "projection".

"Projection is a defense mechanism that involves taking our own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people. For example, if you have a strong dislike for someone, you might instead believe that he or she does not like you. Projection works by allowing the expression of the desire or impulse, but in a way that the ego cannot recognize, therefore reducing anxiety."

Here's a couple of links if you'd care to read more about your mental condition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_7.htm
 
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Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Too much drama. You girls need to stop arguing over which Jonas brother is the cutest, and get back to watching Glee.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Guys....It's really time to get out and smell the fresh air and play guitar more...Knock this childish stuff off now..You've made your points!
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......


New TV drama: "Lew Guitar, Traveling Psychiatrist; He'll figure out what's going on in that noggin of yours."

I'm not the one hounding you for clips. There's no shortage of guys using 250K's and 500K's; listen to their clips. Otherwise, you're just strutting around here puffing out your chest, and I'm not playing that game. The better player is the one who's right about 250K's? Good plan. Maybe we could arm wrestle too?

All I've done is say that 250K's are a viable option for some players. You've gotten you're self worked up like this is some sort of blasphemy. God forbid people should have options! Maybe you can summon up the courage to take on Ray Barbee and straighten him out about his misconceptions on tone. I'd really like to see that. That's where you can 'Put up or shut up.' Take on a big boy and see how you fare.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Guys....It's really time to get out and smell the fresh air and play guitar more...Knock this childish stuff off now..You've made your points!

You're right, I apologize for my share in this. Sometimes I just get tired of Lew's 'Prouncement from Above' that have been going on for years, and get drawn into presenting the other side. I should just tune it out.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

Thank you for this post. Some hard facts finally! We have so many people here assuming that turning down 500K's exactly duplicates a 250K, the fallacy in this type of thinking?

Actually I'm the only one who brought up the idea and I asked the question, I did not make a statement. See that question mark in that quote you posted? I honestly did not know, but I did figure it out a short time later.

"So when you turn a 500k pot down to about 7.5, which if it's an audio pot would be about 250k "


That's true, but there's the question of which frequencies are attenuated by a 250k pot versus turning down a 500k a pinch, and not down to the point where it reads 250k resistance, note the distinction. Suppose they are different, nobody had established by how much. Next time I have recording stuff set up I'll test it If only for my own purposes.
 
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Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

You're right, I apologize for my share in this. Sometimes I just get tired of Lew's 'Prouncement from Above' that have been going on for years, and get drawn into presenting the other side. I should just tune it out.

You and anyone else are free to stop debating at your leasure. This is my idea of a good time. I don't have a guitar with me right now anyway.
 
Re: Anyone tried 250k volume with ......

You and anyone else are free to stop debating at your leasure. This is my idea of a good time. I don't have a guitar with me right now anyway.

That's the equivalent of "Release the Kraken!" around here.
 
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