Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

mine's a bright tube with a lot of definition. With the strat bridge position, in bright mode with the gain up and master down, I have to roll the treble back down somewhere if I'm gonna use its but with past bedroom level the icepick mellows out nicely

That would be the expected result from a vintage GE in a British voiced amp. They have a hardness in their top end presence without the warmth of an RCA to balance it out. The difference with the Mullard is that it has a smoother, sweeter top end, which has the effect of accentuating the midrange frequencies below it. As stated before, this is actually an inefficiency in the Mullard, but it is one of those cases where a technical deficiency turns out to be an extremely musical one. It means that less compensation has to happen in the tone network, because the preamp tube is doing its own tone shaping.

Interestingly, a Mullard sounds decidedly small in an American voiced amp, particularly compared to a 50's RCA or early Tung Sol. I think this is one of the major contributing factors as to why the early Marshalls sounded so different to the Bassman circuits on which they were based.



Cheers..................................... wahwah

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Just grabbed a couple of '60 era Raytheons BPs tonight to try out too. Labeled as Baldwin

The Raytheon/Baldwins are said to be very articulate, even with a low breakup and they were the same price as new production tubes.

I'm planning to start with the short Mullard in V1 and a Ray in V2 and go from there. From what I understand the Baldwin and other organ comapnies had very low tolerances for microphonics and physical noise.

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

yeah i'm prolly gonna switch the GE back to v2. it was just a bit of an experiment so that I can see what tube swaps do. Everything's fine with the japanese tube in v1 and the long-plate GE in v2.
with the GE, it is a bright tube with a bright amp, bright guitar with bright pickups, as above.

The japanese matsush*ta 12ax7 is a good balance. Clear and sweet all around.
I wish i had more money for experimenting with glass, but it CAN be a crap shoot, and I just had to drop $600 on paying past due debt. So, I just get to experiment vicariously thru AniML for a while ^_^

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

yeah i'm prolly gonna switch the GE back to v2. it was just a bit of an experiment so that I can see what tube swaps do. Everything's fine with the japanese tube in v1 and the long-plate GE in v2.
with the GE, it is a bright tube with a bright amp, bright guitar with bright pickups, as above.

The japanese matsush*ta 12ax7 is a good balance. Clear and sweet all around.
I wish i had more money for experimenting with glass, but it CAN be a crap shoot, and I just had to drop $600 on paying past due debt. So, I just get to experiment vicariously thru AniML for a while ^_^

Sent you a PM on a source for some very affordable used vintage. Also, you can always grab a JJ ECC83 for $10 or an 803 for a couple $ more for V2 and keep the Japanese tube in V1.

If you buy the lower demand / lower cost tubes the crap shoot really is not a risk. You can pretty much recover your costs (or at the whims of eBay make a profit) on a flip and it becomes a free trial period, or d@mn close to free

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Very interesting info!!!!
Thanks, wahwah.

So, taking into account current production valves:

Electro Harmonix
Tesla JJ
Tung Sol RI
Chinesse
Mullard RI
Sovtek
Svetlana
EI Yugo
Gold Lion

How do you classify those as preamp / poweramp for British / American Tones?

Note: I am not on the NOS side, since I wouldn't like that the cost of re-tubing my amp could cost more that the amp itself. It makes no sense to me.

I'm just learning but the way I look at it is not much differnt than how you might choose guitar pickups. You look for certain characteristics and research other people's experiences; learn from their succeses and trials. Generally speaking your would not want to put overly bright (dark, or warm if you prefer) pickups in a bright (dark) guitar.

I'm taking the same approach with tubes. The goal is to attain some degree of balance, of course seasoned for taste.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Very interesting info!!!!
Thanks, wahwah.

So, taking into account current production valves:

Electro Harmonix
Tesla JJ
Tung Sol RI
Chinesse
Mullard RI
Sovtek
Svetlana
EI Yugo
Gold Lion

How do you classify those as preamp / poweramp for British / American Tones?

Note: I am not on the NOS side, since I wouldn't like that the cost of re-tubing my amp could cost more that the amp itself. It makes no sense to me.

I haven't used current production preamp tubes since I bought my first blackplate RCA in 2003. As I recall it was a Sovtek LPS that I replaced in an '83 Fender Super Champ, and the difference was so profound that I haven't bothered getting to know the differences between current production tubes. There's really no point in me buying a Russian Mullard RI when I have a dozen early 60's Mullard ECC83's in my stash.

As I understand it, Sovtek, Electro Harmonix, Svetlana, Mullard RI, Gold Lion and Tung Sol RI all come out of the Xpo-pul plant in Saratov, Russia. As a result, it is unlikely that the differences would be as distinct as when the original tubes that these are named after were being produced in different factories in different parts of the world. That's not to say that there aren't differences, I'm sure there probably are, but they will be less distinct than when the competing brands were built on completely different equipment with different materials, not just differences in design and tolerances.

As for how these tubes will fair in a British or American voiced amp, since none of them are responsible for the classic tones produced by the legendary amps, and since no current production RI amp sounds as good as the original, I would say that you may as well try whatever you can get your hands on and settle with whatever serves you best. The same basic principle applies with vintage tubes, but there are distinct reasons in their case as to why they particularly suit specific sounds, not least of all the fact that they were a significant part of creating those classic tones.

With regard to the expense of vintage tubes, I can offer this example. I retubed both of my Super Champs in 2003. In my touring amp, I put in a pair of 1957 RCA blackplate 6V6GT's, an 1958 RCA blackplate 12AX7, a '58 RCA blackplate 12AT7, and a 1975 RCA 6C10. The total cost was $107. With the exception of one of the 6V6's that shattered when it fell from the socket on a flight, the same tubes are still in the amp. I do around 150 shows per year, and the amp takes around 60 flights per year with me. That's 7 years I've got so far from my $107 investment, and the tone is the best the amp has ever had. When the tube shattered, I had to get an emergency pair of EH 6V6's and had to do a show with them before I could get home and replace the dead 6V6. The EH's have never been used again. That's the only money I feel I've wasted on tubes in the past 7 years.

If we attempt to buy sets of NOS 60's Mullard EL-34's, then yes, the myths about vintage tubes will be a harsh reality. The same would apply for a quartet of NOS 60's Mullard EL-84's for an AC30 or similar. These are the cases where finding the best sounding current production tubes is essential. In my case, my EL-34 amps are loaded with SED's, and the only 6L6 amp I have also has SED's. But to pick up a few of the good vintage preamp tubes is no big deal, and no major expense, unless we foolishly accept the outrageous prices asked by some tube dealers. The way I see it, we can either let the collectors or audiophiles have these wonderful old tubes, which will never again be matched or replicated, or we can stick 'em in our guitar amps and enjoy their beauty, dependent, of course, on whether they have the desired effect in your particular amp.




Cheers................................... wahwah

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

yeah NOS doesn't have to be insanely expensive. most NOS tubes from the major manufacturers of old will be useful in some context so long as they test good. At that point it's about matching the best tube to the amp, which can be difficult.
I'm not gonna outright slam new-prod stuff, but compared to the cheap nos tubes I've bought so far, the new stuff just sounds harsh and stiff. Some people like them, some dont, and some people just focus on the other parts of their tone and settle for new stuff because of the low price and steady availability.

while it's true that amp manufacturers spec their amps based on the new tubes they put in the stock amplifiers, many great amps are still based off the good old circuits that made those amps famous. Why re-invent the wheel? I noticed one gent on another forum remark on the great similarity of the night train bright circuit to older vox circuits. NOS tubes that spec out OK will bring at lest some more vintage character.

it's almost like swapping humbucker magnets. Some people just don't feel the need to. Some people LOVE it.

 

[jones]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

NOS preamp tube surely kill any new production. This thread inspired me to double check! I have some EH, Tung-Sol RI, JJ... My humble Sylvania's beat all of those in terms of fidelity. They are warmer and rounder, but still retain more definition. The Tung-Sol RI's do have a good bit of definition, but they are harsh when ab'd with my NOS. I tried an old Amperex 12AT7 in V1, and that kills all the NP too. I may even leave it in there for a while, gives my amp more headroom, since I use OD boxes for dirt, that works for me. May have to get my hands on a 5751, those are famous for lowering the gain in the preamp section of single channel amps like my JTM45 is.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Do you know Harma tubes?

I am seeing in Wattford tubes a complete Vox re-tubing kit that is based on Harma tubes.
Any input?

Harma appears to be a tester and relabeler for a mish-mash of tubes from JJ, Reflector and Chinese manufacturers. So essentially the same stuff, but screened and tested to some extent and then relabeled "Harma." Similar to what Groove Tubes having been doing for years.



Cheers........................................ wahwah

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Agreed. From what I have seen, Harma is Watford Valve's rebrand label. I cannot find them retailed anywhere else.

Intersting aside, it seems Watford has doen a lot of work and tube evals with Brian May

 

[Chas]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Get anything NOS if you have the $.

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

lol I decided to try to return the GE 12ax7.

If he'll swap me I'll get a '64 raytheon grey plate from an organ, or a japanese long plate, also from an organ.

as for getting tubes in europe, do you have any stateside friends who you could trust to buy a tube with your $ and mail it to you? There's also ebay.

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

The Mullards are in NJ. A hop skip and a jump away. Should be here tomorrow, Sat at worst :notworthy

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

lol I decided to try to return the GE 12ax7.

If he'll swap me I'll get a '64 raytheon grey plate from an organ, or a japanese long plate, also from an organ.

There won't be a huge amount of difference between the GE and the Raytheon. The Raytheon will sit somewhere in between the GE and an RCA, but will still essentially be a bold 'American' voiced tube, with an extended top and bottom. Next best thing to a Mullard in that amp would be a 60's Brimar.

Obviously if you are looking at tubes that have been sitting in an organ, we are no longer talking about NOS, they are 'good used' and the prices should reflect that.



Cheers..................................... wahwah

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

There won't be a huge amount of difference between the GE and the Raytheon. The Raytheon will sit somewhere in between the GE and an RCA, but will still essentially be a bold 'American' voiced tube, with an extended top and bottom. Next best thing to a Mullard in that amp would be a 60's Brimar.

Obviously if you are looking at tubes that have been sitting in an organ, we are no longer talking about NOS, they are 'good used' and the prices should reflect that.



Cheers..................................... wahwah

I thought US Raytheons followed more of a Euro design? Where do Japanese Raytheons fall in this spectrum?

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

I thought US Raytheons followed more of a Euro design? Where do Japanese Raytheons fall in this spectrum?

Possibly closer to the German tubes, Siemens and Valvo, etc, but still not the 'British' sound of the Mullards and Brimars. I have no experience with the Japanese tubes, other than that I have heard that the Japanese factories made some very good tubes in their day.




Cheers........................................ wahwah

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Not only for Brian May, as it seems!!!

I recently contacted Tim Mills from BKP, asking him for any reliable tube depot or contact in UK (without suggesting any name), taking into account that the most wanted NOS tubes are UK made (Mullard, Brimar...) and, he surpresivelly, fully recommended me the guy from Watford Valves, as his habitual supplier!!.

Tim is a good tone chaser too so, I guess I will give some oportunity to those Harma tubes from Watford Valves. I already tried TAD tubes and, they sound just OK, the difference is that their testings give you really low microfonic and more reliable and production consistent tubes.

Yes, it's highly likely that Watford will be able to supply some of the best available current production tubes from the Russian, Chinese and Slovakian factories. I haven't seen their pricing, but it is likely that you will pay a premium for their testing and sorting processes. As stated earlier, the Mullards and Brimars are the most sought after vintage tubes for British voiced amps. For Fender styled amps, the RCA blackplate is the most sought after.



Cheers....................................... wahwah

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Well, I got the Mullard 12AX7s. They are a definite improvement in the Night Train over the Sovteks. But in this amp they are not worth the difference in cost over JJs. Still waiting on the the Raytheon / Baldwins.

I am going to flip the Mullards. They will be in the Trading Post shortly...

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Which ones? NOS or RI?

Originals (vintage). Tecnhically I wouldn't them NOS because they are used. They definitely helped over the stock Sovteks, but not much difference between the Mullards and a JJ ECC83 and the Mullards cost 3x

Today, the Baldwins came (Raytheon). Trying those next, but those cost the same as new prod so even if they are on par with prod they will be keepers

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

^^ Baldwins are a winner! The tone trends more upward than the Mullards - more highs and upper mids and a little less bass. Mids are about the same, as are dynamics. Not overly spikely at all - not even with a SD Broadcaster. With the gain really pushed they just need to be tamed a bit, but hey, it is a Broadcaster and that's what a tone knob is for.

I still have 2 more Ray's coming, but unlike the MIA Baldwins, the next pair are Japanese. Should be an interesting shootout.

Oh and I also have a pair of Sylvania (Silvertone) EL84s in transit