AXE FX lead tones all the same?

[uOpt]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

What pisses me off the most is that the music industry suppressed any kind of sound sharing sites so dramatically that everybody has to go to youtube for sound sharing - where they are subject to pretty much random recompression, and recompression that thinks that the video quality is more important.

 

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

i am not happy with axefx zeppelin or mashall or fuzz tones either, but I have high hopes for the kemper!

 

[aleclee]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Anyways, Top-L if you only want a boosted plexi sound then wouldn't it be easier & probably cost wise the same to get a clone build + iso cab setup to cover that sound for recording? Unless space was a concern or the intention is to replace all amp & cabs with a modeller

Rather than an iso cab, I'd suggest something like a Two Notes cab sim.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Great concept and kudos to the dude putting all those historically recognizable tasty riffs and leads together.

That being said, as I listened to them, two amps which I have a vested interest in... which the AXEFX simply cannot do:

1) Plexi Marshall
2) VOX AC-30

The Zep tones were horrid (flat cardboard tone) and the Queen tones even more so (thin buzzy bees tone).

Not to mention complete brown sound fail ("Eruption" - more thin buzzy bees tone).

I've always posited that a typical modeler can only do two tones well:

1) clean (shouldn't be difficult to recreate)
2) super compressed, super distorted buzz (shouldn't be difficult to recreate)

It's those in-between shades they have issues with.

I agree with this, but It's not so black and white. The fender mustangs are winning blind comparisons against classic Fender amps for clean and mild gain stuff, but i agree the cranked plexi sound is elusive.

I think the preamp modelling in the axe is solid, I think where the problems are has to do with the speaker simulation and the tube saturation, either that or capturing the air of the mic. The other thing to consider is that when we compare tones we are comparing against the channel stips in whatever mixer, and whatever effects were added later. The AXe attempts to do all those other things pretty well, fwiw.

I despise the fanboyism of the AXE like I do the iPeople, but it deserves props for what it is.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Rather than an iso cab, I'd suggest something like a Two Notes cab sim.

I have an iso which works great, but it doesnt have the ability to mic from a distance and it limits mic choice to tight patterns, so it has sounds it does well and it doesnt do others.

I can do cranked plexi simulation using the marshall clones in the Fender mustang, run through a tube amp into the iso. Sounds OK to be honest, but I haven't really tried to tweak it and I have the wrong speakers for that tone.

 

[Silver]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The def lep cover is played over the actual track so you hear the original guitars behind it.

Actually, there are no guitars on the backing track. It's just him.

 

[dominus]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

For those mentioning the Kemper - that's not modeling. Those are static profiles of a mic'd up amp. Completely different units.

 

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

gah damm, they have a Watkins Dominator model???

sounds really good, doesn't it??? ya they can profile any amp on the planet! I am just wondering what a fuzz pedal would sound like in front of a kemper, or profiled into the profile

For those mentioning the Kemper - that's not modeling. Those are static profiles of a mic'd up amp. Completely different units.

no doubt! I have agreed with everything you have said on Kempers and Axefx and have learned a lot. I could only afford one and may get one in a year or three since they cost a fortune, but they both sound great! I have never heard axefx sound as good as the organic marshall like broken sludgy tone of the kempers on this page: http://www.theampfactory.com/all-downloads/amps-pack-4/

I see how axefx is designed and it is crazy how detailed each aspect is! I do like that Orange rockerverb 50 profile so, I cant count it out. it is amazing sounding for extreme metal/djent and the new deftones album sounds great! I am just not playing that style of music though.

 

[dystrust]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

For those mentioning the Kemper - that's not modeling. Those are static profiles of a mic'd up amp. Completely different units.

The Kemper works in the same way that a convolution reverb does; it creates a mathematical model or 'profile' or a specific amp / cab combo. This is essentially how all modelers work; the only difference is that the Kemper includes the software needed to make your own models.

sounds really good, doesn't it??? ya they can profile any amp on the planet! I am just wondering what a fuzz pedal would sound like in front of a kemper, or profiled into the profile

no doubt! I have agreed with everything you have said on Kempers and Axefx and have learned a lot. I could only afford one and may get one in a year or three since they cost a fortune, but they both sound great! I have never heard axefx sound as good as the organic marshall like broken sludgy tone of the kempers on this page: http://www.theampfactory.com/all-downloads/amps-pack-4/

I see how axefx is designed and it is crazy how detailed each aspect is! I do like that Orange rockerverb 50 profile so, I cant count it out. it is amazing sounding for extreme metal/djent and the new deftones album sounds great! I am just not playing that style of music though.

The Axe is pretty amazing and you really should play though one before you discount it. There are lots of helpful people on the Fractal forum (and some not so helpful) that will let you take a test drive of their setup. My bro and I drove from Minneapolis to Fargo to check one out a couple years ago and I was blown away. In about 5 minutes my bro was able to create a preset that sounded exactly like U2's slightly overdriven AC30 sound. The really impressive part was that he was using my Charvel Model 4 (with an Invader) to do it.

I obviously like the Axe, but I don't own one; I think it's only fair to say why. The primary reason is price. Axe Ultras on the used market go for $1000+ and they no longer get updates. You can't touch an Axe II for less than about $1800. That's A LOT of money to spend on a single piece of gear that has very limited repairability. Even if my 2555 blows an OT, I can still fix it for a few hundred $$$. If a similarly bad thing happens to an Axe, I suddenly have a very expensive paperweight. Second, I'm not sure how much of the Axe's power & functionality I'd actually use. I may end up like Agileguy's thread from a few days ago where I spent all of my time tweaking instead of playing. I'm in a pretty content place at least as far as guitar gear goes, so I don't really have a reason to change.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

I've seen some really good Axe-FX profiles... they are all dependent upon whoever is doing the programming.

Some people are better than others. Most guitar players/programmers have bad hearing and constantly are reaching for the treble or upper mids to compensate.

Also... real full and rich lead sounds are difficult to obtain with the average programming skills.

Kempers do take the easier route with the programming being easier but the results are very close.

Both formats are only as good as the people programming them.

 

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The Kemper works in the same way that a convolution reverb does; it creates a mathematical model or 'profile' or a specific amp / cab combo. This is essentially how all modelers work; the only difference is that the Kemper includes the software needed to make your own models.



The Axe is pretty amazing and you really should play though one before you discount it. There are lots of helpful people on the Fractal forum (and some not so helpful) that will let you take a test drive of their setup. My bro and I drove from Minneapolis to Fargo to check one out a couple years ago and I was blown away. In about 5 minutes my bro was able to create a preset that sounded exactly like U2's slightly overdriven AC30 sound. The really impressive part was that he was using my Charvel Model 4 (with an Invader) to do it.

I obviously like the Axe, but I don't own one; I think it's only fair to say why. The primary reason is price. Axe Ultras on the used market go for $1000+ and they no longer get updates. You can't touch an Axe II for less than about $1800. That's A LOT of money to spend on a single piece of gear that has very limited repairability. Even if my 2555 blows an OT, I can still fix it for a few hundred $$$. If a similarly bad thing happens to an Axe, I suddenly have a very expensive paperweight. Second, I'm not sure how much of the Axe's power & functionality I'd actually use. I may end up like Agileguy's thread from a few days ago where I spent all of my time tweaking instead of playing. I'm in a pretty content place at least as far as guitar gear goes, so I don't really have a reason to change.

cool brutha, I would like to try, I should prolly do that

but still, I am just interested in recordings and the axefxII has fuzz guitar type recordings out there and they sound bad compared to the real thing, I mean I would not pay for this:

 

[dominus]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The Kemper works in the same way that a convolution reverb does; it creates a mathematical model or 'profile' or a specific amp / cab combo.

Yup, but it's specific Amp/Mic'd up cab. It's not just a "4x12", it's a "Marshall 4x12 with V30s mic'd with an SM57 2 inches from the cone."

This is essentially how all modelers work; the only difference is that the Kemper includes the software needed to make your own models.

This part I disagree with. A lot of modelers are actually modeling circuits. They may use static IRs but the preamps/poweramps are circuit modeled. Better models will react the way the amp does when turning knobs/changing parameters. The Kemper does NOT react that way. It has a single mathematical tone stack. (FYI, I've never owned an AxeFX, but have owned a Kemper. I've owned just about every other modeler.)

I obviously like the Axe, but I don't own one; I think it's only fair to say why. The primary reason is price. Axe Ultras on the used market go for $1000+ and they no longer get updates. You can't touch an Axe II for less than about $1800. That's A LOT of money to spend on a single piece of gear that has very limited repairability. Even if my 2555 blows an OT, I can still fix it for a few hundred $$$. If a similarly bad thing happens to an Axe, I suddenly have a very expensive paperweight. Second, I'm not sure how much of the Axe's power & functionality I'd actually use. I may end up like Agileguy's thread from a few days ago where I spent all of my time tweaking instead of playing. I'm in a pretty content place at least as far as guitar gear goes, so I don't really have a reason to change.

I'd love to have a software based AxeFX, maybe even on a PCIe card to avoid piracy. I've already got a computer, I don't need another one. I know that a lot of the hardware manufacturers tell you that they couldn't use a PC chip for the precise modeling.. yeah, bullsh_t. I get plenty of killer sounds out of software modelers, and they're just getting better.

I'd also own another Kemper if it profiled the amp itself, and NOT the mic'd up cabinet. If they could add a load to the Kemper, then you plug your amp directly into it, tell the Kemper how many knobs it has, and have it take measurements of each knob at different levels, I think it'd be unbeatable. Right now it's useless for me, as I don't use a cabinet, I use IRs. I just use real amps (tube amps with loads) through their effects loops into the computer. I also get the tactile feedback from turning the knobs.

 

[uOpt]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

I highly doubt that "modeling the circuit" will accurately account for all that nonpredictability that happens in tubes.

As for using "static profiles of the amp miced up", obviously that covers a bunch of parameters that the makers picked, and you might or might not agree with their choice of parameters (not value of those parameters).

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

I highly doubt that "modeling the circuit" will accurately account for all that nonpredictability that happens in tubes.

As for using "static profiles of the amp miced up", obviously that covers a bunch of parameters that the makers picked, and you might or might not agree with their choice of parameters (not value of those parameters).

Its actually not that hard to model clipping and EQ in software. Older modellers did not respond to volume swells or tone changes, but the new modelers are doing that very well. Its worth trying the new breed, they are better than even 3 years ago.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The Kemper works in the same way that a convolution reverb does; it creates a mathematical model or 'profile' or a specific amp / cab combo. This is essentially how all modelers work; the only difference is that the Kemper includes the software needed to make your own models.



The Axe is pretty amazing and you really should play though one before you discount it. There are lots of helpful people on the Fractal forum (and some not so helpful) that will let you take a test drive of their setup. My bro and I drove from Minneapolis to Fargo to check one out a couple years ago and I was blown away. In about 5 minutes my bro was able to create a preset that sounded exactly like U2's slightly overdriven AC30 sound. The really impressive part was that he was using my Charvel Model 4 (with an Invader) to do it.

I obviously like the Axe, but I don't own one; I think it's only fair to say why. The primary reason is price. Axe Ultras on the used market go for $1000+ and they no longer get updates. You can't touch an Axe II for less than about $1800. That's A LOT of money to spend on a single piece of gear that has very limited repairability. Even if my 2555 blows an OT, I can still fix it for a few hundred $$$. If a similarly bad thing happens to an Axe, I suddenly have a very expensive paperweight. Second, I'm not sure how much of the Axe's power & functionality I'd actually use. I may end up like Agileguy's thread from a few days ago where I spent all of my time tweaking instead of playing. I'm in a pretty content place at least as far as guitar gear goes, so I don't really have a reason to change.

Zoom offers a $50 modelling pedal which you could play live gigs with. The problem with the AXE is that its overpriced. The consumer modelers are getting better all the time (The gap between them and the AXE is questionable IMO) and will always sell for what beginners can afford. The AXE has a more skilled/experienced user base so the signal to noise in presented clips is much higher,although at some point even the pros are going to acknowledge you can get the same results with a $100 box.

 

[dominus]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

I highly doubt that "modeling the circuit" will accurately account for all that nonpredictability that happens in tubes.

Usually if you have a bad tube, you replace it.

They are modelling tubes pretty well these days. Revalver lets you change tubes and even tweak the parameters of the tubes.

As for using "static profiles of the amp miced up", obviously that covers a bunch of parameters that the makers picked, and you might or might not agree with their choice of parameters (not value of those parameters).

I've also owned an Access Virus. Kemper knows how to build hardware, no doubt about it. He's just coming at it from a mathematical direction rather than a musician's.

 

[scorch]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

You can't be helped.

 

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Right now it's useless for me, as I don't use a cabinet, I use IRs. I just use real amps (tube amps with loads) through their effects loops into the computer. I also get the tactile feedback from turning the knobs.

PM'd, this may be the route that is best for me

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Usually if you have a bad tube, you replace it.

They are modelling tubes pretty well these days. Revalver lets you change tubes and even tweak the parameters of the tubes.




I've also owned an Access Virus. Kemper knows how to build hardware, no doubt about it. He's just coming at it from a mathematical direction rather than a musician's.

Revalver is MF stupid deal of day for $30.

 

[uOpt]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Its actually not that hard to model clipping and EQ in software. Older modellers did not respond to volume swells or tone changes, but the new modelers are doing that very well. Its worth trying the new breed, they are better than even 3 years ago.

Physical tubes are having very unpredictable characteristics and they change. Simply measuring the clipping curve in a lab isn't going to cut it.