Bright Les Pauls?

[papersoul]

Hi guys, I bought a 2003 LP Standard that was lively and somewhat bright. I replaced the caps and pots with the R/S kit which consists of CTS 500k pots, .022 Hovland caps (add to the bright tone?), and special wiring. The guitar became very bright! I then changed bakc to standard wiring but still bright and also installed light weight aluminum tail piece but I was told this will make it brighter yet! Although I hear conflicting stories that this could warm up the tone depending on the guitar. I think I'll re-install the stock tail piece. I also tried the C-5 and Rio BBQ...still bright.

I took the following info. directly from the "Harmonic Design" website and it sounds like the caps will effect the tone on 10..........

"The values of the pots and capacitors will all affect the tone of your guitar, changing these values will allow you to make small adjustments to the tone of most guitars.The most common standard values are typically 500K pots, and .02uf caps for Gibsons, and 250Kpots and .05uf caps for Fenders. These values have been changed over the years, but the basic effect is the same for all (passive) pickups.

1. LARGER value pots will shift the tone to a slightly brighter range, and may increase noise slightly. This is the reason many Fender guitars use the lower 250K value, to provide a slightly warmer tone and lower noise from their bright single-coil pickups.

2. SMALLER value tone caps sound brighter, larger caps can increase the mid-range response of the pickups. This can affect your sound even when the tone control is turned on '10'. The radical shift in tone on a Strat bridge pickup demonstrates this effect. The bridge pickup has the smallest value tone cap (NONE) and produces the brightest tone. This effect is more noticeable on high-impedence single coils than on humbuckers.

Higher value caps shift the resonant frequency of the pickups and wiring
combination to a lower frequency and allow a slightly warmer/fatter
tone. This modest effect is perhaps more noticeable to the player than
a listener and varies in intensity with different pickup and pot
combinations. Strats are perhaps the most sensitive, and metal covered
humbuckers probably the least sensitive to these changes.
It's probabaly best to use a switch to try out different caps while
you're playing, to really be sure how much difference it makes, and to
avoid voodoo and/or wishful thinking..

What's often lost in the discussion about tone caps is
that they're NOT akin to the coupling caps in a guitar amp or tube
Hi-Fi amp. Those caps are conducting the signal (your tone) from one
stage to the next and decent grade caps are usually more efficient at
higher frequencies, and sound 'better'. You CAN actually hear a
difference, although many amps including Fender and Boogie, intentionally use a low-grade ceramic cap to couple the pre-amp to the power-amp. It's a slighty darker, grittier tone.

But all this vibe about using high-grade caps is pretty meaningless in a
guitar tone control. The cap isn't conducting your tone at all, it's
merely rolling off some treble to ground...sort of a detour.
With that in mind, it's arguable that a LOW-GRADE cap would be
better for a tone control. More inductance and a poor high-frequency
characteristic would leave a slighty clearer tone, if anything, and
reduce the effect of the tone control when it's fully dimmed-out....and
they certainly seem to be pretty common. If Fender, or anybody else,
could noticeably 'improve' their guitar's tone by merely susbstituting
a cap costing 50 cents more, they'd have figured that out a long time
ago."

Thanks!
ps

 

[kaknight]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Personally, I wouldn't worry about how much your caps are going to brighten your sound when you have your tone dimed. Is there a difference? Maybe, although my rudimentary understanding of electronic circuitry says that if your pots are good, there should be no noticeable diff whatsoever. I think that this leaves you with two choices, 1) change your pots to a lower value 2) put in pups that are less "top end" oriented.

My rig is bright. for my single coil guitars, this setup makes a nice growl. My HB guitars on the other hand tended to get a little bit too bright. On my PRS (59/C5) I turn down the tone on the guitar to about 8. This isn't perfect, but it helps. When I ordered my Heritage Les Paul, I requested AIIpro for neck, and CC for bridge. The guitar sounds perfect with my rig. It's very smooth and not overly bright. It has a lot of nice mids sound as well. You might try a CC (or swapping the mag on your C5 to make yourself one). It made a big diff for me.

 

[59paul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Good, Logical advice from KaKnight ...
You may want to try 300k pots.
Switching to a pickup with less High End sounds good, also.
And.....what amp are you using??? The amp figures into the equation, also. Are you using an amp that is known for it's Brightness??

The easiest of these would obviously be :
1. Switching to a less bright pickup
Good Luck!!! .............

 

[MattPete]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

I was experimenting with pickups last night, and the pickguard I use for that currently has a 500k push-pull tone knob that can switch between a .01 and a .047 tone cap. At 10, I can hear no discernable difference between the two, but here is a huge difference at 1 (the difference doesn't really start to show up until 2 or 3).

I've had some success with using DR Tite-fits to tame the brightness in my maple-capped Warmoth.

 

[papersoul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Thanks guys, but there has to be some reason why my guitar got incredibly bright when i installed the new caps (Hovlands) and CTS pots! Apparently the stock Gibsons were 500 so that was a waste.

I may start from scratch and tak the guitar back to stock and then only change the pickups if necessary.

 

[59paul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Thanks guys, but there has to be some reason why my guitar got incredibly bright when i installed the new caps (Hovlands) and CTS pots! Apparently the stock Gibsons were 500 so that was a waste.

I may start from scratch and tak the guitar back to stock and then only change the pickups if necessary.

That's what I'd do..................

 

[rspst14]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Try a set of pure nickel strings next time you're due for a change. They have a warmer sound than regular nickel or stainless steel, and I prefer the softer, smoother feel of pure nickel. As a bonus, they are easier on your frets. I used my Wolfgang with pure nickel strings as my main guitar every day for three years, and there's absolutely zero fretwear on the guitar.

Ryan

 

[kaknight]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

I'm a big believer in those nickel strings as well. Ernie Ball makes some great ones!

 

[HolyDirt]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

i saw your other post about the history of pots that gibson has used, but i'm still almost positive that new lp's have 300k pots... just try reinstalling the stock pots and see if it works, you have to isolate this problem, and to do that, you have to try stuff out as a process of elimination.

 

[Falstaff]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

One thing to keep in mind: there's a reason they call the bridge pickup "Treble" on the switch. It's really easy (especially with PAF-type pickups and 500k pots) to get a really bright tone. The pots and the pickups might have had something to do with the amps Gibson was making at the time; I'm not sure and I'm no historian. But like Kaknight said there is some magic in fooling with the tone knob a bit.

 

[papersoul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Ernie Ball Nickel strings...Hmmmm. I may try those but I never had briught issues on my other guitar and they all had Boomers. I need to isolate the other issues.

My tech and I both agree this LP was warmer and smoother with the stock pots and Gibson confimed they are 300k. I am surprised even the BBQ and C-5 were way bright! This guitar is naturally bright and resonant! It works best with the 300ks I guess.

I also may go back to the stock tail piece rather than the aluminum one.

 

[Wattage]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Nickel strings might help a bit but that's not a drastic change in brightness (I like DR Pure BLues or Gibson Vintage but that's all personal taste). I'd try some A2 mags in the pups and see if that you gets going in the right direction. If so then you can dial in pups but a few dollars in magnets is cheaper than new pups anyday.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Do you have a multimeter? If so, measure your old pots and see if they really are 500K.

Something to remember too is that even with your pots on "10" some highs will bleed through the tone pot and tone cap and escape to ground.

If the cap is smaller, .02 vs .05, the .02 cap will block more upper mids/lower treble frequencies from escaping and the result could be a brighter sound...maybe.

Also, when you rewired your guitar did you connect the tone cap to the middle terminal of the volume pot? I always do, but that will make your guitar a little brighter, tho the effect is most noticable when the volume is reduced a bit. That's the 50's mod.

As for the featherweight tailpiece making your guitar brighter: I don't think so. It'll just make it a little more resonant or add a certain acoustic quality to the tone. I prefer the lightweight tailpiece...sounds less steeley to me.

Lew

 

[papersoul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Do you have a multimeter? If so, measure your old pots and see if they really are 500K.

Something to remember too is that even with your pots on "10" some highs will bleed through the tone pot and tone cap and escape to ground.

If the cap is smaller, .02 vs .05, the .02 cap will block more upper mids/lower treble frequencies from escaping and the result could be a brighter sound...maybe.

Also, when you rewired your guitar did you connect the tone cap to the middle terminal of the volume pot? I always do, but that will make your guitar a little brighter, tho the effect is most noticable when the volume is reduced a bit. That's the 50's mod.

As for the featherweight tailpiece making your guitar brighter: I don't think so. It'll just make it a little more resonant or add a certain acoustic quality to the tone. I prefer the lightweight tailpiece...sounds less steeley to me.

Lew

Lew, I currently have the guitar in standard wiring with the new 500k pots and Hovland caps. I see no reason to go back to the ceramic disks, but I am going to try the Gibson 300k pots as a tech confirmed my guitar came with 300ks. He said they found the new Gibson LP Standard work better and sound wamrmer with the 300ks since the newer LP Standard are brighter and very resonant.

I still can't decide if I should go back to the Burstbucker Pros.

Many on the LP Forum have mentioned that a light weight aluminum tail will enhance an already bright guitar and may not be the best idea. The guy who made my tailpiece also told me I may end up with a more clear and brighter tone compared to the stock piece.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Lew, I currently have the guitar in standard wiring with the new 500k pots and Hovland caps. I see no reason to go back to the ceramic disks, but I am going to try the Gibson 300k pots as a tech confirmed my guitar came with 300ks. He said they found the new Gibson LP Standard work better and sound wamrmer with the 300ks since the newer LP Standard are brighter and very resonant.

I still can't decide if I should go back to the Burstbucker Pros.

Many on the LP Forum have mentioned that a light weight aluminum tail will enhance an already bright guitar and may not be the best idea. The guy who made my tailpiece also told me I may end up with a more clear and brighter tone compared to the stock piece.

Well...if the guys on the LPF "mentioned that a light weight aluminum tail will enhance an already bright guitar and may not be the best idea" I'd definately put the lightweight tailpiece on... :smack: ...because I often find the opposite of the stuff they say on the LPF to be true!

Stock zinc tailpieces weigh about 3 times more than aluminum. It's personal taste, but I switched all my stop tailpieces over to aluminum and couldn't be happier with the improvement. If you want your Les Paul to sound more like a real 50's burst, the aluminum tailpiece is a must.

The increase in treble you experienced is because of the 500K pots you installed and the 300K pots you removed...I can almost guarantee it.

Good luck!

Lew

 

[kaknight]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

I just checked my rig, and while I can't tell the pot values (Heritage wiring guy apparently used the value number as a target while soldering), I noticed that the guitar does have hovland caps (that's a nice little bonus the guys at heritage did that I didn't even know about), but is wired not in the 50's wiring. So I wouldn't remove those precious hovlands in your quest for darkening your tone. Have you tried this guitar out on another amp? Maybe take it to your local guitar store and a/b it with some stock LP's and see how yours compares.

 

[papersoul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

Thanks guys!

A guy on the LPF said he thought the Hovlands made his guitar brighter than the stock Gibson Ceramics but both are the same value which seems weird!! I may just keep the Hovlands.

Lew, I know you nailed it with the 500k pots. My guitar is a "bright" LP from the start.......naturally bright so the 300k pots worked well, even with humbuckers! I think I am going back but should I go back to all four 300ks??

Maybe I'll keep the tailpiece in place. My guitar was already light and resonant! my guitar tech still thinks I was crazy to touch anything on this guitar.

 

[Jeffrec]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

I'm a big believer in those nickel strings as well. Ernie Ball makes some great ones!

I agree. Aside from the electronic stuff, go with a set of Ernie Ball Classic Pure Nickle strings (0.10->0.46). Other than that, you've gotten some great advice. Good luck

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

If you have not done so: (before messing around with the pots and caps)

1. Increase the pickup height quite a lot. One thing I see in many fellow LP fans is that they have the bridge pickup set quite low for a LP. It's gotta be quite high, just check the height of the pickup rings on historics!

2. Lower the screw poles all by 1/2 turn. It might be doing the trick you want. Increasing them would make the srew bobin more pronounced and thus the oevrall tone will be brighter, more single coil.

3. Wrap the strings on the tail piece. It definitely increases sustain, and in many cases eliminates icepicky bridge tones. I have all my LPs like that.

4. Use your tone control. I am not gonna be going into details (unlike done on the other thread using the knobs and all), but what I do is to adjust my bridge tone on the amp for guitar vol10 is: To find the sweet spot on the amp for the bridge (with the tone like 6), and that same setting should sound good for the neck with vol/tone 10. Then in the bridge position I have the extra punch if needed.

5. Learn to use your mid position. OK now try the following for a thick bridge tone: The middle position, bridge vol 10 tone 10, neck vol ~8, tone ~6. By playing with the vol and tone of the neck you could get quite thick but predominantly bridge tones.

B

 

[papersoul]

Re: Bright Les Pauls?

If you have not done so: (before messing around with the pots and caps)

1. Increase the pickup height quite a lot. One thing I see in many fellow LP fans is that they have the bridge pickup set quite low for a LP. It's gotta be quite high, just check the height of the pickup rings on historics!

2. Lower the screw poles all by 1/2 turn. It might be doing the trick you want. Increasing them would make the srew bobin more pronounced and thus the oevrall tone will be brighter, more single coil.

3. Wrap the strings on the tail piece. It definitely increases sustain, and in many cases eliminates icepicky bridge tones. I have all my LPs like that.

4. Use your tone control. I am not gonna be going into details (unlike done on the other thread using the knobs and all), but what I do is to adjust my bridge tone on the amp for guitar vol10 is: To find the sweet spot on the amp for the bridge (with the tone like 6), and that same setting should sound good for the neck with vol/tone 10. Then in the bridge position I have the extra punch if needed.

5. Learn to use your mid position. OK now try the following for a thick bridge tone: The middle position, bridge vol 10 tone 10, neck vol ~8, tone ~6. By playing with the vol and tone of the neck you could get quite thick but predominantly bridge tones.

B

Hi Doc,

Rather than wrap the stings, I bought an aluminum tail but may go back to total stock as I rememebr my LP being warmer and creamier in stock form.

I have the pickups so the pole pieces are flush with the bobbin and flush with the front slugs. I also have the bridge pickup at about 1/16" from the strings.