Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

[Blue Calx]

Hello, SD forum. Long time, no see!
If I remember correctly, we have some computer and recording experts here on the board. This is perfect, because all I have been able to talk to are computer experts and they don't always know what is appropriate for a recording rig.

Anyway, I've been saving and saving (and will likely continue saving) to buy "as pro a rig" as I can - as far as computer hardware is concerned. My first concern is to just get the thing up and running windows so I can be sure my parts work and still stay within the 30-day warranty if they're crap right outta the box. To do this, I need to make a critical decision about cpu, motherboard and memory.

What I want to be able to do:
Large (24 + track) sessions, at least 8 simultaneous in/out (not exactly what she said...)
An entire band's worth of samples to play all the other instruments I do not play.
Completely forget latency and dropouts.
The ability to upgrade just in case I do eventually end up recording bigger sessions for cash.

I've read/been told that choice of memory is a huge factor when running large amounts of samples/effects/automation, etc. I have chosen the following mobo/cpu combo based on considerations that I will lay out in a sec...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1306644

This board supports up to 64GB of some FAST DDR3 (2133/1866/1600/1333/1066), so I figure the 64 GB is something to grow into, and the speeds look excellent.
Then, I noticed something about the processor itself: In the product details, it says "Integrated Memory Controller Speed" is only 1600.

After wondering why newegg would bundle a board capable of supporting DDR3 2133 with a processor only capable of 1600, I went out looking for a processor that would handle the faster memory. I imagine a sort of bottleneck that would make buying very fast RAM a waste of $$$.

When I found no such processor on the market, I began to realize that there's something probably flawed about my understanding of these numbers, and of how the processor/board/memory all work together. I have found a few threads on other boards about this issue, but it's asked from a non-recording standpoint, and it was too technical for me to make heads or tails of. I have a feeling that you all would give better advice.

Keeping in mind that I would not even mind saving for another year if it means I get to build a killer, future-proof rig, do any of you experts have any advice on choosing memory? Choosing a different processor/board combo?

Any advice is helpful.

I miss you guys!

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

I'm going to take this in chunks; forgive any formatting issues.

What I want to be able to do:
Large (24 + track) sessions, at least 8 simultaneous in/out (not exactly what she said...)
An entire band's worth of samples to play all the other instruments I do not play.
Completely forget latency and dropouts.
The ability to upgrade just in case I do eventually end up recording bigger sessions for cash.

Cool; this is totally doable. My current rig does 28i/o with no latency or dropouts and runs off FW800. Our studio rig can do 48 and has no issues even with heavy processing, albeit via a PCI card/MADI interface.

I've read/been told that choice of memory is a huge factor when running large amounts of samples/effects/automation, etc. I have chosen the following mobo/cpu combo based on considerations that I will lay out in a sec...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1306644

This is NOT accurate. RAM comes into play when you're dealing with virtual instruments or samplers that load samples into RAM (Superior Drummer, Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc). What really matters above all else for plugin count, low latency, automation, etc. is the processor.

This board supports up to 64GB of some FAST DDR3 (2133/1866/1600/1333/1066), so I figure the 64 GB is something to grow into, and the speeds look excellent.
Then, I noticed something about the processor itself: In the product details, it says "Integrated Memory Controller Speed" is only 1600.

After wondering why newegg would bundle a board capable of supporting DDR3 2133 with a processor only capable of 1600, I went out looking for a processor that would handle the faster memory. I imagine a sort of bottleneck that would make buying very fast RAM a waste of $$$.

When I found no such processor on the market, I began to realize that there's something probably flawed about my understanding of these numbers, and of how the processor/board/memory all work together. I have found a few threads on other boards about this issue, but it's asked from a non-recording standpoint, and it was too technical for me to make heads or tails of. I have a feeling that you all would give better advice.

Keeping in mind that I would not even mind saving for another year if it means I get to build a killer, future-proof rig, do any of you experts have any advice on choosing memory? Choosing a different processor/board combo?

Here's the issue - you're looking for RAM first, which is not what you should be doing. 64GB is overkill and a half. My personal rig has 8GB and I've never run into any issues despite running Superior Drummer, Trilian, Omnisphere, etc at the same time.

Pick out a processor first. From there, choose a mobo based on the slot and what stock ports you need. Then choose a few sticks of RAM that correspond to that board. After that, get an SSD for the OS drive and pair it with another HDD for recording to and some setup for backups. My personal choice would be 1 SSD for OS, 1 SSD for "current tracking/editing," 1TB HDD for mixing/storage/projects on the back burner, and another 1 or 2TB HDD specifically for backups.

The next biggie will be to pick out an interface that meets your needs and budget - that's another story entirely.


For the PC build, this is something I can recommend:

http://www.tonymacx86.com/golden-bu...core-i7-3770k-ga-z77x-up5-th-16gb-hd4000.html

It's designed to be a Hackintosh, but you can just as easily load Windows on it and have a rock-solid machine for a very good price. Regardless of anything else, expect to pay around $1300-1500 for a machine that will blow you away for many years to come.

What's your budget for the interface, and what existing gear do you have (preamps, compressors, eqs, converters where applicable)?

 

[Blue Calx]

Re: Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

Awesome, I was hoping you would reply!

What did you think about that cpu/board combo I posted?
I think that the price is about right, even if the 64 GB memory capacity is way overkill.
Looks like it would be comparable to the one in your link.
The only questionable thing is the lack of a firewire port, but the interface I plan on
using (used MOTU 2408 mkII) hooks up via PCI card, and I can't think of another reason to have FW.
The 2408 stacks if I get a second one for 16 i/o.

I did plan on going SSD with all the drives - I even played around with the idea of a RAID setup.
If using SSD for current recording, would you recommend RAID0 for extra... is "bandwidth" the right word? Or RAID1 for redundancy?

For software, I'm waiting on PT11 - for the 64 bit upgrade (I heard that the 64-bit MOTU drivers don't play well with 32-bit PT10). Also, I get a HUGE academic discount on this software, so that's leaning me in that direction.

For samplers, I'll be using DKFH for drums, and Reason for most everything else. I would just like the ability to expand as I learn more.

I think I may hover around 16GB ram. You really don't think the DDR3 1600 is "too slow?" Again, I'm not really sure what exactly that number measures. Would I do better to look for low CAS latency instead?

Existing Gear.... well, nothing. That's the thing - this is still a work in progress. I want to get the PC built and running first. Then I'll add pieces (the first obviously being the interface), mics, preamps, monitors, outboard gear, etc. In the meantime, I'm holding a bunch of song ideas in my own fading memory... I need to put this stuff down!
Priority 1: have something to just get started with
Priority 2: make sure the heart of that something is powerful enough to build upon in the future

Do you have a different recommendation for the interface?
Thanks again for your help!

I'm going to take this in chunks; forgive any formatting issues.



Cool; this is totally doable. My current rig does 28i/o with no latency or dropouts and runs off FW800. Our studio rig can do 48 and has no issues even with heavy processing, albeit via a PCI card/MADI interface.



This is NOT accurate. RAM comes into play when you're dealing with virtual instruments or samplers that load samples into RAM (Superior Drummer, Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc). What really matters above all else for plugin count, low latency, automation, etc. is the processor.




Here's the issue - you're looking for RAM first, which is not what you should be doing. 64GB is overkill and a half. My personal rig has 8GB and I've never run into any issues despite running Superior Drummer, Trilian, Omnisphere, etc at the same time.

Pick out a processor first. From there, choose a mobo based on the slot and what stock ports you need. Then choose a few sticks of RAM that correspond to that board. After that, get an SSD for the OS drive and pair it with another HDD for recording to and some setup for backups. My personal choice would be 1 SSD for OS, 1 SSD for "current tracking/editing," 1TB HDD for mixing/storage/projects on the back burner, and another 1 or 2TB HDD specifically for backups.

The next biggie will be to pick out an interface that meets your needs and budget - that's another story entirely.


For the PC build, this is something I can recommend:

http://www.tonymacx86.com/golden-bu...core-i7-3770k-ga-z77x-up5-th-16gb-hd4000.html

It's designed to be a Hackintosh, but you can just as easily load Windows on it and have a rock-solid machine for a very good price. Regardless of anything else, expect to pay around $1300-1500 for a machine that will blow you away for many years to come.

What's your budget for the interface, and what existing gear do you have (preamps, compressors, eqs, converters where applicable)?

 

[Blue Calx]

Re: Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

Actually, I'm now reading about some serious driver compatibility issues between MOTU's 424 card and 64-bit windows 7. Might have to go a different route with the interface. I was looking at the 2408 because I've used one before, and can get a used one for a reasonable price... but it's not worth the headache of having to troubleshoot some issue that seems to only be solved by downloading an older, buggier driver.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

Awesome, I was hoping you would reply!

What did you think about that cpu/board combo I posted?
I think that the price is about right, even if the 64 GB memory capacity is way overkill.
Looks like it would be comparable to the one in your link.
The only questionable thing is the lack of a firewire port, but the interface I plan on
using (used MOTU 2408 mkII) hooks up via PCI card, and I can't think of another reason to have FW.
The 2408 stacks if I get a second one for 16 i/o.

I did plan on going SSD with all the drives - I even played around with the idea of a RAID setup.
If using SSD for current recording, would you recommend RAID0 for extra... is "bandwidth" the right word? Or RAID1 for redundancy?

For software, I'm waiting on PT11 - for the 64 bit upgrade (I heard that the 64-bit MOTU drivers don't play well with 32-bit PT10). Also, I get a HUGE academic discount on this software, so that's leaning me in that direction.

For samplers, I'll be using DKFH for drums, and Reason for most everything else. I would just like the ability to expand as I learn more.

I think I may hover around 16GB ram. You really don't think the DDR3 1600 is "too slow?" Again, I'm not really sure what exactly that number measures. Would I do better to look for low CAS latency instead?

Existing Gear.... well, nothing. That's the thing - this is still a work in progress. I want to get the PC built and running first. Then I'll add pieces (the first obviously being the interface), mics, preamps, monitors, outboard gear, etc. In the meantime, I'm holding a bunch of song ideas in my own fading memory... I need to put this stuff down!
Priority 1: have something to just get started with
Priority 2: make sure the heart of that something is powerful enough to build upon in the future

Do you have a different recommendation for the interface?
Thanks again for your help!

Overlooked that link before - mobo/cpu combo looks great. I wouldn't worry about RAM speed; at the speeds they're at these days it really won't be a problem if you get 1600 or 1833 or whatever.

I've never bothered with RAID setups for my stuff to be honest; single drives work fine enough for me and I backup so frequently (twice daily, at least) that the redundancy thing has never appealed to me. YMMV, though - the real benefit of the SSD is the speed. Lightning fast to the point where I can't stand working on HDDs now. Both my desktop and laptop rig run SSD OS drives, and our studio machine runs two (one for OS, one for current tracking as I mentioned). Between that and my tablet/phone, I use HDDs for literally nothing but backup and long-term storage.

PT11 should rule; I got an academic discount on 9 which came with a free upgrade to 10. I'm still on Cubase for 99% of my work but I'll be getting PT11 at some point for the offline bouncing and a few of the other features.

16GB will handle anything you could ever throw at it, RAM wise. The biggest kit I can think of in Superior 2.0 is around 2.5GB of RAM and even Omnisphere would only take up another 6-8 at an insanely high max.

Your priorities are bang-on, though. Really happy to hear that. A lot of guys just want an all-in one solution and don't understand the concept of a solid core to expand on, and that's always a bummer.


As for interfaces, my friend Will Putney (The Machine Shop) runs a pair of 2408s at 64bit with Logic and a ton of outboard, so it's definitely capable of handling some serious business. You'll need additional pres and whatnot with them, but they're good interfaces. That said, they are becoming (or already are) obsolete quickly. If it were me, I'd invest in something from RME, SSL, UAD, or Apogee; I run an RME interface and love the totalmix software to death and the converters/drivers are some of the best on the market. We run SSL converters in the studio and those have been rock solid as well, but cost about twice as much.

To get started you're going to need the computer, interface, preamps, and mics at the very least. Some interfaces will have preamps built in, but none that are very good (certainly useable, but not great by any means). Your budget will be key here.

 

[Blue Calx]

Re: Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

I see the Fireface 800 listed on your gear page. You think I'll run into fewer compatibility issues with firewire? Those RME interfaces appear to be no joke. BTW, do you happen t know what OS putney is running?

I think I've got some more ideas for utting this together. Thanks for your help!
Now I just have to wait and see if I still have a job next school year. If not, may have to go into extreme chipmonk mode, and save up cash to live off of rather than to play with!

Overlooked that link before - mobo/cpu combo looks great. I wouldn't worry about RAM speed; at the speeds they're at these days it really won't be a problem if you get 1600 or 1833 or whatever.

I've never bothered with RAID setups for my stuff to be honest; single drives work fine enough for me and I backup so frequently (twice daily, at least) that the redundancy thing has never appealed to me. YMMV, though - the real benefit of the SSD is the speed. Lightning fast to the point where I can't stand working on HDDs now. Both my desktop and laptop rig run SSD OS drives, and our studio machine runs two (one for OS, one for current tracking as I mentioned). Between that and my tablet/phone, I use HDDs for literally nothing but backup and long-term storage.

PT11 should rule; I got an academic discount on 9 which came with a free upgrade to 10. I'm still on Cubase for 99% of my work but I'll be getting PT11 at some point for the offline bouncing and a few of the other features.

16GB will handle anything you could ever throw at it, RAM wise. The biggest kit I can think of in Superior 2.0 is around 2.5GB of RAM and even Omnisphere would only take up another 6-8 at an insanely high max.

Your priorities are bang-on, though. Really happy to hear that. A lot of guys just want an all-in one solution and don't understand the concept of a solid core to expand on, and that's always a bummer.


As for interfaces, my friend Will Putney (The Machine Shop) runs a pair of 2408s at 64bit with Logic and a ton of outboard, so it's definitely capable of handling some serious business. You'll need additional pres and whatnot with them, but they're good interfaces. That said, they are becoming (or already are) obsolete quickly. If it were me, I'd invest in something from RME, SSL, UAD, or Apogee; I run an RME interface and love the totalmix software to death and the converters/drivers are some of the best on the market. We run SSL converters in the studio and those have been rock solid as well, but cost about twice as much.

To get started you're going to need the computer, interface, preamps, and mics at the very least. Some interfaces will have preamps built in, but none that are very good (certainly useable, but not great by any means). Your budget will be key here.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Building "monster DAW rig" - questions not covered in other threads

The FF800 is the old version of RME's current offering, the UFX. I want one pretty badly but the FF800 is so damn powerful and rock solid that there's zero reason for me to really upgrade. Stock pres are garbage but I've got a slew of API, Neve, and SSL pres I run into it when I'm not just going SPDIF via the Kemper. I don't know about fewer compatibility issues (you shouldn't run into many at all these days, at least with the caliber of gear that RME et al offer), but you'll have a much wider range of choices when it comes to interfaces, and at a much lower cost than going PCI. The tradeoff will be latency (PCI can get lower for the same CPU use), but I've never had an issue with my rig and I know plenty of pros that run FW400/800 and even USB based setups these days. With a powerful enough computer like the one you're aiming to build, you can run low latency and still have plenty of headroom left for processing, no problem at all.

Putney's a Logic guy, so he's strictly on OS X.