"Can I apply a coupon to that?"

[Top-L]

I think MF and Sweetwater also suffer from a little of the old furniture liquidation syndrome you used to see in the 80s and 90s. If EVERYTHING (except the highest end gear) is ALWAYS going on and off sale with new PR pushes every day and every week -I get emails everyday touting new sales and deals) -what if anything is really a deal thats better than the normal deals they continually offer?

Very rarely do I find "deals" that aren't already "deals" -discerning what is a real "must buy" because it's an incredible price are more rare.

Also, the MSRP inflation to create the % off -is the most classic of all manufacturing, wholesale and retail technique for creating excitement.

Its true. Although this whole thing began when MF sent me a couple 20% coupons over the past six month or so. It does get you browsing and thinking.

I had my eye on the G11 but thought it was a bit overpriced. The 25% discount is enough for me to give it a try.

I do think that the next crop of FX processors will feel downward pricing pressure. Everything was at $500 for a couple decades, then Fractal Cliff started charging boutique prices for his digital boxes (which to my ears were roughly the same quality of modeling with better presets and IR loading.) Line6 followed suit.

Now the cheap pedals have "flagship" modeling, IR loading, and great user interfaces. I don't see how Line6 and Fractal will continue to justify their prices, they are already playing catch up in UI department. QC is the new benchmark for flagship UI.

Line6 marketing did supress challenges from the Headrush and Zoom boxes (both which have touch and better interfaces) despite maybe not having the best tones available. the Helix is sort of in a middle ground now, not the best UI, not the worst. Not the best tones, not the worst. Serviceable as they say. My hope is the G11 will have "Helix level" tones and a better interface for half the price. It will keep me playing until the next iteration of the Fractal/Boss, which hopefully will have a new interface. Or the next Helix, which will have better tone and fx resolution.

 

[Ewizard]

I would highly doubt that any system would allow you to walk away with an item like that with an already significant discount and a coupon to boot. That would be a 40% discount! And that product likely qualified for free shipping.

The only way I have seen people able to get much beyond a 25% discount is on products that are B-Stock, customer returns, or if you get a backdoor deal from a distributor.

There is NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT for them to apply a discount simply because a sales associate said they can. Keep in mind, purchasing something is only a legal agreement when money exchanges hands or a contract was signed and agreed upon by both parties prior to sale. This doesn't mean that vendors won't occasionally abide by verbal agreements made in hast. In the case of high ticket items such as an already SEVERELY OVERPRICED Les Paul, there is likely a very good profit margin, or in recent years with GC's and MF's financial woe's, there is an extreme incentive for them to sell anything that may have already been amortized or depreciated.

Some of you may have heard the term " kill price "? This is the term used to describe the sale of an item at cost. I.E. get rid of it at what it cost us to have it here because if it doesn't go now, it will be worth less than nothing later. This is usually applied to seasonal items like candy, clothing, and impulse buy items like umbrellas in the summertime. Ever notice how Halloween candy bags are $20 until the 30th and then sell for $10 on the first of November.

We as consumers are at an extreme advantage. We now have the internet and a lot of competition for our business. It is a race to the bottom for vendors to make and sell products. I think this sometimes makes us look a gift horse in the mouth. I want this now, but don't have that kind of money, so I will search, wheel, and deal until you can get it. Case in point, I REALLY want a Two Notes Captor X. I can't find a used one at much better of a price than a new one. I have the money, I just don't want to spend it on a product that I know will be old hat in 5 years. I'm not in a place to make money off of it and it serves no purpose to me other than silent playing and rolling IR's. In either case, I think if you really want it, you will have to pay the piper the asking price.

 

[Top-L]

I would highly doubt that any system would allow you to walk away with an item like that with an already significant discount and a coupon to boot. That would be a 40% discount! And that product likely qualified for free shipping.
....

We as consumers are at an extreme advantage. We now have the internet and a lot of competition for our business. It is a race to the bottom for vendors to make and sell products. I think this sometimes makes us look a gift horse in the mouth. I want this now, but don't have that kind of money, so I will search, wheel, and deal until you can get it. Case in point, I REALLY want a Two Notes Captor X. I can't find a used one at much better of a price than a new one. I have the money, I just don't want to spend it on a product that I know will be old hat in 5 years. I'm not in a place to make money off of it and it serves no purpose to me other than silent playing and rolling IR's. In either case, I think if you really want it, you will have to pay the piper the asking price.

It never hurts to ask! Also, as consumers we never know the situation behind the scenes. It may be that the *need* to get rid of something or that possibly the salesman *needs* to reach a quota.

Apparently the used market is different now. There used to be an online culture of buying/flipping, but from what I've heard, used prices are generally closer to new, or at least people are sitting on their used gear and trying to get everything they can for it. Fees and shipping charges have gone up and places like GC offer no risk used buying experience. No one wants to get taken to the cleaners, OTH competition from GC makes it hard to get a good price. If I want something used, I will keep pinging GC until I can find a zero risk deal on what I want.

 

[Ewizard]

I think what we have seen is where the oil and water meet. The race to the bottom has been achieved and things can't get any cheaper without severe cost-cutting measures being done. These cost-cutting measures make for obvious faults that will make a product fail in popularity in short order.

For example, Amazon Basics is selling guitar pedals made by NuX for less than NuX sells them for... So how much does it really cost for the things? There are several companies using OEM, off the shelf stuff that simply has a different name on it. The Alto and Headrush 12" speakers are an example. The same speaker, sold by two companies, and neither of them made the speaker.

The few companies that have a market pegged ( Strymon and Two Notes for example ) are selling a product at a pretty good premium. Nobody else can do what they do, so why not? The demand is huge lately for these types of things, and the used market very limited or small. If you're one of only a handful of sellers with a used unit and others have been getting top dollar, it stands to reason you will too. The point where the oil meets the water is what we are seeing. That hairline difference between new and used pricing caused by what you might call price-fixing from the manufacturers. Shure has been called out on this technique for years with their SM58. The SM58 is and has been sold for roughly the same price for YEARS with little or no markup for the sellers. The cost is also the same regardless of your distribution deal, making the SM58 impossible to get new for less than about $99 to $98 no matter who you buy it from. If I am not mistaken, the mic costs $87 for a dealer to even purchase. The margin is so small, only an idiot would break the distribution deal and sell it for less than the MAP that Shure sells it for. Now imagine you're Strymon, Two Notes, or Fractal Audio, where you not only make the products in-house but leave zero margins for a distributor to work with... You have no choice but to go with the MAP set by the manufacturer. This trickles down to the used market. You can't find it cheaper ANYWHERE, and if it's a high demand product that has few people trying to sell used, the prices just stay locked to the ceiling.

 

[Securb]

There is NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT for them to apply a discount simply because a sales associate said they can. Keep in mind, purchasing something is only a legal agreement when money exchanges hands or a contract was signed and agreed upon by both parties prior to sale.

You need to look at the FTC rules. And the FTC rules kick in way before the purchase process kicks in. This is why I now own a $2,500 Gold Top I paid $400 for. Not B Stock and not a backdoor deal. I have been in sales for 40 years, I spend all day staring at contracts, I am fairly aware of the rules and the laws.

 

[Top-L]

I think what we have seen is where the oil and water meet. The race to the bottom has been achieved and things can't get any cheaper without severe cost-cutting measures being done. These cost-cutting measures make for obvious faults that will make a product fail in popularity in short order.

For example, Amazon Basics is selling guitar pedals made by NuX for less than NuX sells them for... So how much does it really cost for the things? There are several companies using OEM, off the shelf stuff that simply has a different name on it. The Alto and Headrush 12" speakers are an example. The same speaker, sold by two companies, and neither of them made the speaker.

The few companies that have a market pegged ( Strymon and Two Notes for example ) are selling a product at a pretty good premium. Nobody else can do what they do, so why not? The demand is huge lately for these types of things, and the used market very limited or small. If you're one of only a handful of sellers with a used unit and others have been getting top dollar, it stands to reason you will too. The point where the oil meets the water is what we are seeing. That hairline difference between new and used pricing caused by what you might call price-fixing from the manufacturers. Shure has been called out on this technique for years with their SM58. The SM58 is and has been sold for roughly the same price for YEARS with little or no markup for the sellers. The cost is also the same regardless of your distribution deal, making the SM58 impossible to get new for less than about $99 to $98 no matter who you buy it from. If I am not mistaken, the mic costs $87 for a dealer to even purchase. The margin is so small, only an idiot would break the distribution deal and sell it for less than the MAP that Shure sells it for. Now imagine you're Strymon, Two Notes, or Fractal Audio, where you not only make the products in-house but leave zero margins for a distributor to work with... You have no choice but to go with the MAP set by the manufacturer. This trickles down to the used market. You can't find it cheaper ANYWHERE, and if it's a high demand product that has few people trying to sell used, the prices just stay locked to the ceiling.

Some of this made sense.

Amazon basics is sickening. They use analytics of their third party sellers to decide what to manufacture/contract and sell. So if you are a successful small seller, Amazon will steal your business and undercut on price.

This is already way beyond a monopoly. US govt doesn't interfere because it raises the economy (at least short term) and probably armies of lobbyists.

I know I bought the G11 from Amazon, but it has an equal chance of going back to them.

 

[Top-L]

You need to look at the FTC rules. And the FTC rules kick in way before the purchase process kicks in. This is why I now own a $2,500 Gold Top I paid $400 for. Not B Stock and not a backdoor deal. I have been in sales for 40 years, I spend all day staring at contracts, I am fairly aware of the rules and the laws.

Did you "ask to speak with the manager", or did you have to write a letter and fight harder?

 

[GuitarStv]

That hairline difference between new and used pricing caused by what you might call price-fixing from the manufacturers. Shure has been called out on this technique for years with their SM58. The SM58 is and has been sold for roughly the same price for YEARS with little or no markup for the sellers. The cost is also the same regardless of your distribution deal, making the SM58 impossible to get new for less than about $99 to $98 no matter who you buy it from. If I am not mistaken, the mic costs $87 for a dealer to even purchase. The margin is so small, only an idiot would break the distribution deal and sell it for less than the MAP that Shure sells it for.

I don't understand why this is a problem at all. If you make a product that a lot of people want, what's wrong with setting the price to a level you think is reasonable?

The SM58 has been close to the same price for years . . . and that's incredible. Manufacturing costs haven't dropped over that period of time. Resellers and retailers are cancerous middlemen who exist to skim profits while producing nothing of value. If I could buy all of my stuff directly from manufacturers, I would.

 

[Securb]

Did you "ask to speak with the manager", or did you have to write a letter and fight harder?

I asked for the manager he said he would "never sell me a Goldtop for $400" so I sent a letter to the CEO and Board of Directors with a link to the FTC site explaining the law. The same manager called me back a half-hour after I sent that email and offered me the guitar for $400.

 

[devastone]

I asked for the manager he said he would "never sell me a Goldtop for $400" so I sent a letter to the CEO and Board of Directors with a link to the FTC site explaining the law. The same manager called me back a half-hour after I sent that email and offered me the guitar for $400.

I wonder who lost their job over that.

 

[Top-L]

I wonder who lost their job over that.

I wonder if the guitar arrived with a big scratch across the front.

 

[Securb]

I wonder who lost their job over that.

They said the pricing mistake was a flaw in the eBay software

I wonder if the guitar arrived with a big scratch across the front.

It was delivered and still is in pristine condition.

 

[Top-L]

They said the pricing mistake was a flaw in the eBay software



It was delivered and still is in pristine condition.

So ebay was involved. In my case where the sales guy promised another 15% off, what recourse would I have had? I didn't have a recording and there wasn't a screenshot.

 

[Securb]

So ebay was involved. In my case where the sales guy promised another 15% off, what recourse would I have had? I didn't have a recording and there wasn't a screenshot.

You should have immediately asked for someone that could approve the purchase. A verbal contract is binding. "My word is my bond" is not just a saying it is a legal standard. When a bond trader says he is buying or selling a bond it is done no matter what happens next. When someone verbally agrees to a price they can not reverse track, his manager would have known this and gave you the deal. There are legal protections in place for these verbal contracts that are protected by the FTC. If you clearly show that you understand the law and let the retailer know you are willing to take the issue to the limits of the law you will always win. This is not a trick to manipulate retailers or to scam cheap equipment. However, if your rights are infringed on or the law has been broken you have the right and responsibility to protect yourself.

 

[alex1fly]

Would you like to save another $100? Sure. Do you need to? No, but then you probably don't need the gear either it isn't worth sweating over. But then, I still feel guilty for the one time I lowballed AND haggled a guy for a bass guitar. He prob thinks about it a lot too... Move on, find another deal, buy it used, or just pay the dang asking price.

Re: Amazon, yes their prices are often lowest, and their return policy is generous, but they do that by destroying anyone in their way, treating their employees like crap, and a host of other ills. I stopped buying their electronics when they stopped using decent packaging material. I don't buy stuff expecting to return it, and I don't want my delicate items to arrive having been bashed around like the pedal that arrived with brown paper instead of bubble wrap, or the power conditioner that arrived with absolutely nothing padding it in the shipping box. It's worth it to me to buy from a place like Sweetwater, which still has great prices, and maybe pay a few bucks more in exchange for:
Real customer service by gear nerds like me
Supporting a company that provides a liveable wage and good working conditions for their employees
2 year warranty on most items
Care put into the shipping - most items are OVERpacked
Free advice on replacement parts and DIY fixes if warranty doesn't cover something. Sweetwater once spent probably 7 emails with me just to help me order a $5 part for some headphones. They lost money on that exchange, but they gained some loyalty because it showed me that they care about people in addition to profit.

I think it can be easy to focus on what we don't have (the extra discount in your case, a "complete" arsenal of gear in mine, whatever that means) rather than appreciating that we can afford our toys and have the faculties to enjoy them.

 

[Top-L]

Would you like to save another $100? Sure. Do you need to? No, but then you probably don't need the gear either it isn't worth sweating over. But then, I still feel guilty for the one time I lowballed AND haggled a guy for a bass guitar. He prob thinks about it a lot too... Move on, find another deal, buy it used, or just pay the dang asking price.

Re: Amazon, yes their prices are often lowest, and their return policy is generous, but they do that by destroying anyone in their way, treating their employees like crap, and a host of other ills. I stopped buying their electronics when they stopped using decent packaging material. I don't buy stuff expecting to return it, and I don't want my delicate items to arrive having been bashed around like the pedal that arrived with brown paper instead of bubble wrap, or the power conditioner that arrived with absolutely nothing padding it in the shipping box. It's worth it to me to buy from a place like Sweetwater, which still has great prices, and maybe pay a few bucks more in exchange for:
Real customer service by gear nerds like me
Supporting a company that provides a liveable wage and good working conditions for their employees
2 year warranty on most items
Care put into the shipping - most items are OVERpacked
Free advice on replacement parts and DIY fixes if warranty doesn't cover something. Sweetwater once spent probably 7 emails with me just to help me order a $5 part for some headphones. They lost money on that exchange, but they gained some loyalty because it showed me that they care about people in addition to profit.

I think it can be easy to focus on what we don't have (the extra discount in your case, a "complete" arsenal of gear in mine, whatever that means) rather than appreciating that we can afford our toys and have the faculties to enjoy them.

You are totally right. I only ordered from Amazon, because of fast shipping and I didn't want to incur the risk of losing on a return. Still think its 50/50 if I return it. I really don't like being in this situation; there is no chance to try it locally, so I decided to buy from the place with the most liberal return policy.

I think buying it from Amazon was the wrong decision. On this particular item, Sweetwater is the right choice because of the 2 year warranty. If I had thought it through better I would have used Sweetwater.

 

[superpete]

i mean...if you like it you can always take advantage of amazon's liberal return policy and buy another from sweetwater.

 

[Ewizard]

I wrote a longer post earlier that addressed a few things. The short version is this:

Securb, you got a lucky break. You had a purchase that an eBay seller tried to renege on. Totally different than what most people deal with. I would guess that this only happens 1 in perhaps 10 thousand sales at best. You may be ahead of the curve on this subject, but there are thousands of purchases every day.

A mismarked price or improperly tagged price on an item has stood up in court, Target recently went through an ordeal with it, but that doesn't typically happen on big-ticket items.

A coupon almost 99.99% of the time has fine print that states that it cannot and will not be combined with other discounts, coupons, or offers. And because that fine print exists, it precludes ANYTHING a sales associate or manager said they can do. You have no legal recourse if there is fine print because it already sets the contract long before you even received the coupon. While many would like to believe a verbal contract exists if an associate says a price, but you have to have not only a recorded transaction ( can't use hearsay ), but it also has to actually be an agreement. I.E. if the associate/manager says I believe it is X price or I think I can do this, or I will try and see if I can get it for you at X price, does not mean that they then must honor that price. They must specifically say that it is X price and that they will sell it to you specifically at that price. Again, if a coupon is involved, no legal recourse, because the terms of the coupon preclude the now fake agreement.

This is a case where an associate was trying to go the extra mile to create a deal. It just couldn't happen.

I mentioned price-fixing and how it is bad for us as consumers. While there are no claims that there is any price-fixing occurring, let's just say that while the competing companies don't have an agreement with each other, it sure seems weird that there are more than half a dozen producing pretty much the same effects ( competing products ) that all share the same pricing structure. Most of the top names ( J Rocket, Strymon, Earthquaker, Freidman, Vertex, JHS, Walrus Audio to name a few ) all have a nearly identical pricing structure. It starts as low as $149 and goes up as high as $299 for the basic pedal offerings. It cannot be a coincidence that EHX, TC-Electronics, Boss, and few others can make nearly the same pedals that have a much larger range in price that does appear to be more in line with actual production cost or market value. These companies seem to be more realistic and market-friendly as well. A Strymon Deca costs the same as a Strymon Flint. Two totally different pedals that only share the same number of knobs. And then Vertex..... They just decided that all their pedals were going to be $199 or $299, doesn't matter what it is, who they copied, or who's product they stuck their sticker over. I'm not saying, I'm just saying The recent pedal craze has gotten out of hand and there are some companies that are taking full advantage of it. It started with one and now there is a train of companies that are all in silent cahoots to keep the cost of pedals up; doesn't matter if it's a simple 10 component boost pedal or a really complicated delay.

That is what grinds my gears about the way things have been. I know for a fact that the Strymon Iridium will be old hat in another two years. It is already starting to fall from grace. There have been no updates or talk about updates. This is a $400 pedal that as best I can tell will be a forgotten format within 5 years from its release. The Two Notes Captor X is also something I feel will be in this camp. These items are expensive, hard to find used, and when sold used are near new prices and in 5 years will be paperweights anyway. The Line 6 Pod HD comes to mind. You can still buy it, but no one is. It is no longer updated, has zero love, and is just there so that old users won't feel totally taken for a ride. I really want something like the Captor X, but it is expensive and my biggest fear is it becoming outmoded before I get full use and ROI from it.

Just my 2 pennies. YMMV.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

You should have immediately asked for someone that could approve the purchase. A verbal contract is binding. "My word is my bond" is not just a saying it is a legal standard. When a bond trader says he is buying or selling a bond it is done no matter what happens next. When someone verbally agrees to a price they can not reverse track, his manager would have known this and gave you the deal. There are legal protections in place for these verbal contracts that are protected by the FTC. If you clearly show that you understand the law and let the retailer know you are willing to take the issue to the limits of the law you will always win. This is not a trick to manipulate retailers or to scam cheap equipment. However, if your rights are infringed on or the law has been broken you have the right and responsibility to protect yourself.

To my knowledge a verbal contract has no legal binding cause there is no concrete proof or not unlike your-word-against-mine he-said-she-said case, no? That's why everything is put on paper.

But I don't know, this only happens in America. If you make it clear that you are intent to make the case federal, the other party will eventually concede even though you have no concrete evidence? You felt like a million bucks when you took that goldtop home...lol.

 

[Top-L]

I wrote a longer post earlier that addressed a few things. The short version is this:

Securb, you got a lucky break. You had a purchase that an eBay seller tried to renege on. Totally different than what most people deal with. I would guess that this only happens 1 in perhaps 10 thousand sales at best. You may be ahead of the curve on this subject, but there are thousands of purchases every day.

A mismarked price or improperly tagged price on an item has stood up in court, Target recently went through an ordeal with it, but that doesn't typically happen on big-ticket items.

A coupon almost 99.99% of the time has fine print that states that it cannot and will not be combined with other discounts, coupons, or offers. And because that fine print exists, it precludes ANYTHING a sales associate or manager said they can do. You have no legal recourse if there is fine print because it already sets the contract long before you even received the coupon. While many would like to believe a verbal contract exists if an associate says a price, but you have to have not only a recorded transaction ( can't use hearsay ), but it also has to actually be an agreement. I.E. if the associate/manager says I believe it is X price or I think I can do this, or I will try and see if I can get it for you at X price, does not mean that they then must honor that price. They must specifically say that it is X price and that they will sell it to you specifically at that price. Again, if a coupon is involved, no legal recourse, because the terms of the coupon preclude the now fake agreement.

This is a case where an associate was trying to go the extra mile to create a deal. It just couldn't happen.

I mentioned price-fixing and how it is bad for us as consumers. While there are no claims that there is any price-fixing occurring, let's just say that while the competing companies don't have an agreement with each other, it sure seems weird that there are more than half a dozen producing pretty much the same effects ( competing products ) that all share the same pricing structure. Most of the top names ( J Rocket, Strymon, Earthquaker, Freidman, Vertex, JHS, Walrus Audio to name a few ) all have a nearly identical pricing structure. It starts as low as $149 and goes up as high as $299 for the basic pedal offerings. It cannot be a coincidence that EHX, TC-Electronics, Boss, and few others can make nearly the same pedals that have a much larger range in price that does appear to be more in line with actual production cost or market value. These companies seem to be more realistic and market-friendly as well. A Strymon Deca costs the same as a Strymon Flint. Two totally different pedals that only share the same number of knobs. And then Vertex..... They just decided that all their pedals were going to be $199 or $299, doesn't matter what it is, who they copied, or who's product they stuck their sticker over. I'm not saying, I'm just saying The recent pedal craze has gotten out of hand and there are some companies that are taking full advantage of it. It started with one and now there is a train of companies that are all in silent cahoots to keep the cost of pedals up; doesn't matter if it's a simple 10 component boost pedal or a really complicated delay.

That is what grinds my gears about the way things have been. I know for a fact that the Strymon Iridium will be old hat in another two years. It is already starting to fall from grace. There have been no updates or talk about updates. This is a $400 pedal that as best I can tell will be a forgotten format within 5 years from its release. The Two Notes Captor X is also something I feel will be in this camp. These items are expensive, hard to find used, and when sold used are near new prices and in 5 years will be paperweights anyway. The Line 6 Pod HD comes to mind. You can still buy it, but no one is. It is no longer updated, has zero love, and is just there so that old users won't feel totally taken for a ride. I really want something like the Captor X, but it is expensive and my biggest fear is it becoming outmoded before I get full use and ROI from it.

Just my 2 pennies. YMMV.

The Captor X is a good product, but we are already 7+ years into the Torpedo product line, so that concept is nearing end of life. Or rather, there are multiple players in the game now and its a mature product space.

If you want a reactive load with IR loader, the Captor X costs $500. The Boss Tube Amp expander costs twice that. There is probably a Chinese or Russian version of that which will do it for $200.

IR loading is a comoddity these days.

A reactive load + IR loader in a pedal format is for a unique customer. Its for someone who lugs a tube amp to gigs and wants a small IR loader for monitor mix. Most people concerned about footprint will probably use a small modeler or modeling amp with direct out built in. Most of the mad scientist home recorders are going to get something more fully featured like Boss TAE or Ox Amp.

Personally I used to mic amps, have a load box, IR player on PC, direct vab sims, etc... but I found that if I want to get particular sounds for songs I am learning/playing, that all-in-one modelers cover alot more ground.

If I am just playing for enjoyment, I will play through an amp and enjoy it in room. If I am trying to get a particular sound for recording, modelers are best. A loadbox/IR player... just doesnt fit my use case. The sound that you are hearing in room while playing a real amp always is fundamentally different than the miked or IR sound. So if I set my amp to be "perfect", then run it through an iso load and IR, it ends up being different... it still needs tweaking on the back end to make it sound like a record. I would rather just cut to the chase and do all the tweaking in a modeler. That way I am always hearing what will be recorded.

I think modelers have gotten good enough that most of those reactive load boxes are already end of life.