Chords and Modes

[Guitar Toad]

Let’s say I write a song in E Major or E Ionian. And I write the song using the standard chords for E Major, E, F#m, G#m, A Maj, B Maj7, C#m, D# dim.

Then after writing the song I decide that this song may be better if I use the C# Aeolian mode, can I simply use the same chords C#m, D# dim, E, F#m, G#m, A Maj, B Maj7, and make C#m the home chord. And I can also D#sus and E sus chords for a different feel and still be in the key and mode, right?

Then if I want to make the bluesy variation of the same song I would use the C#m pentatonic blues scale and use the chords C7, F#7, G#7 chords.

I need to ask these questions as a check to see if I'm getting this right. Thanks for your comments.

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Chords and Modes

Hmmm, well first off, the chords in E major would be E, F#m G#m A maj7, Bdom7 (not maj7), C#m, D#Dim,

As for C# Aeolian, yeah, you can use the same chords as you would in E major just with C#min as "home" as for the Sus chords you asked about, Esus is cool as there is an "A" diatonic in the key, as for the D#sus, that would be venturing outside because a D#sus chord is spelled D# G# A#, there's no A# in Emajor, only an "A" which would be a lowered fifth for the D# Chord.

As for blues harmony, the typical blues harmony is I IV and V chords all being dominant, so C#7 F#7 and G#7 using a C#min Pent scale, thats your "stock" blues harmony.

Great questions dude, i hope this helps, let me know if it doesn't . . .

Ty

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Chords and Modes

Hmmm, well first off, the chords in E major would be E, F#m G#m A maj7, Bdom7 (not maj7), C#m, D#Dim,

As for C# Aeolian, yeah, you can use the same chords as you would in E major just with C#min as "home" as for the Sus chords you asked about, Esus is cool as there is an "A" diatonic in the key, as for the D#sus, that would be venturing outside because a D#sus chord is spelled D# G# A#, there's no A# in Emajor, only an "A" which would be a lowered fifth for the D# Chord.

As for blues harmony, the typical blues harmony is I IV and V chords all being dominant, so C#7 F#7 and G#7 using a C#min Pent scale, thats your "stock" blues harmony.

Great questions dude, i hope this helps, let me know if it doesn't . . .

Ty

Thanks for the correction and the post. When writing about this stuff I get the IV and V chords mixed up, the IV gets the Maj7th not the V chord.

My understanding was that sus chords are universal chords and that means that they are neither major nor minor therefore I assumed they could be easily substituted for the 2 and 3rd degrees without any problems. But as you pointed out I'll need to pay a little bit of attention.

Let me ask, when and how is it right to use the common blues chords that I think is called a C#9th, I'm asking about proper use of the following two forms within a scale and mode and not the exact chords as shown:

----------
-----4----
-----4----
---3------
-----4----
----------

and the purple haze chord when can be named C# 7th Sharp 9th in this instance.
----------
-------5--
-----4----
---3------
-----4----
----------

Do you simple play to see where they sound good? How can I predict/know where they will fit?

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Chords and Modes

Another great question, typically, these chords apply depending on where they are going . . . . on a broader, more general level . . . . . C#(9) will seem to want to go to a major chord ( D9 -> Gmaj) and a C#(#9) will want to go to a minor chord (C#(#9) -> F#min). Now obviously in blues, that all changes, and those alterations give you the tension your looking for, the way I treat these things basically depends on the scale your using . . . . for instance Amin Pentatonic . . . .A C D E G, this scale has the "#9 (C)" so if your chording and a buddy is soloing in that scale, its best to use an A7(#9) chord as an A9 will clash with the what he's playing . . . . so a good place to start, is look at the scale your writing the song based on, or soloing with and see what available extensions there are in the scales . . . eventually you get to the point that you do the "no rules, but just follow my solo and see what i do" . . . . . ive heard a few guys like that, and its incredible. But yah, the best place to start is right out the scale your basing it all off of, and use the extensions on the chords that exist in that scale,

T

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Chords and Modes

But yah, the best place to start is right out the scale your basing it all off of, and use the extensions on the chords that exist in that scale,

T

Ty, thanks man. You've been a great help. You've answered my questions and fed me just enough new information to chew on for a bit. I just need to simply see where the chords fit the scale and mode and use the chords there. Do that until it becomes second nature. I've gotta start learning to think in terms of flats, sharps, and tones.

In the rock and blues world, do song writers "cheat" (for lack of a better term at the moment) by simply ignoring the formal rules and using all major chords where a minor chord is called for in the strict academic sense. Where in the E major scale, the 2nd and 3rd degrees are F#m and G#m, is it normal practice to go ahead and play the F# and G# major chords?

I guess in the end if you play it and it sounds good, then play it again and make a song with it...In some ways it seems harder to be a musician today, just because it seems that everything has already been done. Discovering the new cool, and unique vibes for tomorrow's sound is tough work, at least for me it is.

 

[Kev]

Re: Chords and Modes

Hmmm, well first off, the chords in E major would be E, F#m G#m A maj7, Bdom7 (not maj7), C#m, D#Dim,

why A maj7 and Bdom7 and not just the straight chords that you would find in the e major scale?

Cheers

Kev

 

[Osensei]

Re: Chords and Modes

While it is true that you could theoretically apply the techniques you are speaking of in terms of modal interpretations, keep in mind that many times theoretical correctness can lead to boredom. It all depends on the context and what the desired effect is. I find that often times tunes fall into one of the following categories.

A. Tunes that are harmonically simple but melodically intricate
B. Tunes that are harmonically complex and melodically simple
C. Tunes that are static, nebulous or otherwise impressionistic

Style is a factor. In styles like blues for instance I find it is often more convenient to think about "common" or "best" practices that are more traditional or historical rather than purely theoretical. This doesn't mean that one should discard theory from the equation. It simply means that in some instances the theory needs to be adapted/extended to accommodate the music rather than the other way around. It's sort of like making up the rules of a card game as you go! A perfect example would be Miles Davis' famed tritone substitution.

Modal theories and harmonies most likely predate the ancient Egyptians yet I'm certain that there was nothing in the modes that could have predicted the tritone. Common sense dictated that either the theory needed to be ignored or modified to accurately describe this new vehicle known as the tritone substitution and its application. In either case the music took precedent over the theory. This is as it should be.

 

[tone4days]

Re: Chords and Modes

you have to introduce the concept of tension and release to this discussion in order to increase the scope of its relevance ... it is common to intentionally introduce melodic or harmonic components outside the key center in order to create a sense of 'resolution' when a more 'inside' melodic/harmonic tone is arrived at ...

 

[tone4days]

Re: Chords and Modes

why A maj7 and Bdom7 and not just the straight chords that you would find in the e major scale?

Cheers

Kev

yes kev, he mixed in those harmonizing to the 7th with all the other triads ... when harmonizing to the 7s, you get I maj 7, ii min7, iii min7, IV maj7, V7, vi min7, viimin7b5

 

[flank]

Re: Chords and Modes

this thread is making me head explode.......just play ya dang guitar!

 

[Guitarist]

Re: Chords and Modes

In some ways it seems harder to be a musician today, just because it seems that everything has already been done. Discovery the new cool, and unique vibes for tomorrow's sound is tough work...

One of these days, someone is going to lift us up in a way we couldn't even dream of. Finding that movement is tough, like you said, but knowing that we've just hit the tip of the iceberg with music is more than stimulating. It's what keeps me going.

Good luck with your music, GT.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Chords and Modes

While it is true that you could theoretically apply the techniques you are speaking of in terms of modal interpretations, keep in mind that many times theoretical correctness can lead to boredom. It all depends on the context and what the desired effect is. I find that often times tunes fall into one of the following categories.

A. Tunes that are harmonically simple but melodically intricate
B. Tunes that are harmonically complex and melodically simple
C. Tunes that are static, nebulous or otherwise impressionistic

Style is a factor. In styles like blues for instance I find it is often more convenient to think about "common" or "best" practices that are more traditional or historical rather than purely theoretical. This doesn't mean that one should discard theory from the equation. It simply means that in some instances the theory needs to be adapted/extended to accommodate the music rather than the other way around. It's sort of like making up the rules of a card game as you go! A perfect example would be Miles Davis' famed tritone substitution.

Modal theories and harmonies most likely predate the ancient Egyptians yet I'm certain that there was nothing in the modes that could have predicted the tritone. Common sense dictated that either the theory needed to be ignored or modified to accurately describe this new vehicle known as the tritone substitution and its application. In either case the music took precedent over the theory. This is as it should be.

That's an excellent post. I believe it whole heartedly.
My query and my intent is to use theory as a general guide. Hopefully, I can use music theory simply to keep me guided in a good direction. It's helped me know know what notes to play and what notes to avoid.

In styles like blues for instance I find it is often more convenient to think about "common" or "best" practices that are more traditional or historical rather than purely theoretical.

I can accept that...Often the ear is more satisfied by familiar tones and patterns than new and unique. The ear likes familarity.

If it sounds good play it...
Thanks for your excellent post. :bigthumb:

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Chords and Modes

you have to introduce the concept of tension and release to this discussion in order to increase the scope of its relevance ... it is common to intentionally introduce melodic or harmonic components outside the key center in order to create a sense of 'resolution' when a more 'inside' melodic/harmonic tone is arrived at ...

That's exactly what I want to do. It seems that some can do this quite naturally. Others have to learn how...I'm ok with that...

Thanks T4D. Nice post...as usual from you. One of these days this is gonna click and something is gonna happen... I'm gonna actually write an album...then who knows what.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Chords and Modes

this thread is making me head explode.......just play ya dang guitar!

Easy for you to say, Jack! You're already a great player.

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Chords and Modes

you have to introduce the concept of tension and release to this discussion in order to increase the scope of its relevance ... it is common to intentionally introduce melodic or harmonic components outside the key center in order to create a sense of 'resolution' when a more 'inside' melodic/harmonic tone is arrived at ...

Couldn't agree more, with that said, I personally have found it easier to break the rules, once the "diatonic" rules are learned. It gives you a mastery of "inside" harmony so you can properly resolve the "outside" harmony your going after . . . .

 

[tone4days]

Re: Chords and Modes

Couldn't agree more, with that said, I personally have found it easier to break the rules, once the "diatonic" rules are learned. It gives you a mastery of "inside" harmony so you can properly resolve the "outside" harmony your going after . . . .

and for a very cool example of this very thing, check the clip G&L offered up a month or so ago in "tips n clips" .. i think i called them 'wtf' notes (which in my lexicon is among the highest compliments)

t4d

 

[Kev]

Re: Chords and Modes

yes kev, he mixed in those harmonizing to the 7th with all the other triads ... when harmonizing to the 7s, you get I maj 7, ii min7, iii min7, IV maj7, V7, vi min7, viimin7b5

Im still confused bud! Are you saying he could have played standard chords but is using the 7ths instead to be more exotic etc? Whats this about the harmony stuff also? Excuse my ignorance

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Chords and Modes

There is a distinction between scales and keys.



Here is a useful site for scales:
http://jguitar.com/scale

 

[Osensei]

Re: Chords and Modes

It seems to me that you are faced with a two fold problem. The first issue you face is deriving a method for constructing meaningful chord progressions as you interpret them. The second is applying appropriate melodic ideas against the progression that you have derived.

For the first issue, I would refer you back to the "best practices" point I raised earlier. If your goal is to create music within a pre-existing style or idiom then I believe that the better approach would be to familiarize yourself with commonly or otherwise traditional harmonic vehicles (progressions) that are characteristic of that style.

If on the other hand, your goal is to create something new and refreshing then I would still recommend you do the former. Pick a style or group of styles that closely approximate the style you look to create and study those styles commonly used harmonic progressions, melodic motifs and phrasiology. That means you might have to play some covers for a while. From there you can extend, borrow, extrapolate and fuse until you derive the new style that you have targeted. To me this is vital in the sense that nothing new is totally free from the evolution of that which has come before it. People that have tried to free themselves from the constraints of the evolutionary process have found themselves in the relm of the avante garde where thier styles are eventually kicked to the curb.

As for melody, remember this. Modes and scales as commonly practiced by those who lack the facility to probe deeply are just too vanilla if you catch my drift. It's not uncommon for someone looking at a min7 chord to go nuts on a dorian, phrygian, aolian, melodic minor or harmonic minor mode/scale. With the exeption of the harmonic and melodic minor these applications are as I stated earlier, "too vanilla". They seldom provide the accidentals and harmonic extensions absent of bending that are necessary for the tensions and releases that you seek. This means that you must probe beyond the obvious.

Modal applications are not as straight forward as you might think. Take a C7 chord for instance. I start out by spelling the chord along with all of its extensions.

C E G G# Bb Db D D# F F# A

It spells out like this

C = root
Db = b9th
D = 2nd, 9th
D# = +9th
E = 3rd
F = 4th, 11th
F# = b5, +11
G = 5th
G# = +5th
A = 6th, 13th
Bb = dom 7th


This spelling illustrates that many times what people are calling accidentals, blue notes or outside is actually only an extension to the real harmony. These notes can be interpreted as the domain or the place where the C7 chord lives. Now let's place the notes according to thier ordinal positions.

C Db D D# E F F# G G# A Bb

That's practically the whole chromatic scale dude! Now take this C7 universe and see if you can derive from it scales that you already know. I haven't done the math but I see a lot of half steps so I bet there is a phrygian in there somewhere that you would not normally associate with Cmaj. From this chords domain you can piece together lots of modes that you otherwise would not have considered for the key of Cmaj! Who woulda thunk it!

Find a song with a progression you like and craft a solo or melody to it using this method for each chord. Maybe you can post the results!

Good luck!:arms:

 

[GandLMan]

Re: Chords and Modes

Yah, what the above thread says is definitly the case, certain modes played over top of a chord will definitly imply new "tonality's" or "harmony's" per say, however if a firm grasp of "modes" and creating the "sound" of the mode isn't there, which to a certain degree. I like the above mentioned train of thought, as you get cool scales and sounds coming out, however like i've said before, own the "inside" stock harmony first, then venture to the outside world. I guarantee you that truly owning "inside" playing is a lifetime achievement and a huge array of colors exist from purely a major scale, that working those colors is a vital step before superimposing new sounds over existing chords and harmony's