Robbiedbee
New member
Re: Chords and Modes
This thread is cool. It has been a really good read.
This thread is cool. It has been a really good read.
Chords and Modes
- Thread starter Guitar Toad
- Start date
jalguitarman
Junior Member
Re: Chords and Modes
I love jazz too. I want to do a modern jazz album someday but i want to have more excitment and dynamics than what i hear latley. I have thought i would like to kind of throw some of my electronic leanings in the mix. I have done this on a small scale and it sounds very neat. What i did was create a modern r&b type beat. played a somewhat jazzy piano and modern jazzy layered sound. Then i played a snchro sonic type sem-techno sound and it takes it to another very interesting level. With out the sound its kind of like a romantic R&b /modern jazz tune that is beautiful then i bring the sound in and its like you have been transported somewhere else. Its like the sense of emoitions expressed have just been heightened. Basically its just an 8 bar pattern i did in my proteus 2500 as an experiment. I love the study of modes and although i have had no formal training i was fortunate enough to have a guitar grimiore at one time and would still have still had it had some one not ripped it off along with all my guitar world colum clippings and stuff like that. I have found a great freedo in the knowledge of modes and really i want to apply more of them. I am just so used to the aeolian mode.
I love jazz too. I want to do a modern jazz album someday but i want to have more excitment and dynamics than what i hear latley. I have thought i would like to kind of throw some of my electronic leanings in the mix. I have done this on a small scale and it sounds very neat. What i did was create a modern r&b type beat. played a somewhat jazzy piano and modern jazzy layered sound. Then i played a snchro sonic type sem-techno sound and it takes it to another very interesting level. With out the sound its kind of like a romantic R&b /modern jazz tune that is beautiful then i bring the sound in and its like you have been transported somewhere else. Its like the sense of emoitions expressed have just been heightened. Basically its just an 8 bar pattern i did in my proteus 2500 as an experiment. I love the study of modes and although i have had no formal training i was fortunate enough to have a guitar grimiore at one time and would still have still had it had some one not ripped it off along with all my guitar world colum clippings and stuff like that. I have found a great freedo in the knowledge of modes and really i want to apply more of them. I am just so used to the aeolian mode.
Guitar Toad
Toadily Stratologist
Re: Chords and Modes
I'm somewhat ashamed to say that although I'm from KC, I really don't know Pat Matheny as well as I should. In my youngers days it just wasn't cool for a metal/hard rock guy to be cause with "easy listening" music. I think I've matured enough to handle some Pat Matheny Group.
I'm somewhat ashamed to say that although I'm from KC, I really don't know Pat Matheny as well as I should. In my youngers days it just wasn't cool for a metal/hard rock guy to be cause with "easy listening" music. I think I've matured enough to handle some Pat Matheny Group.
Re: Chords and Modes
Toad:
You forgot about the extensions I talked about in the earlier posts. Also this key signature stuff has really got you rattled. There are no rules that say a chord has to be voiced a certain way (major/minor) just because of the underlying key signature or scale. All of the elements can exist independent of one another. We're talking modern music here!
The scales, pentatonic, blues and otherwise are chosen most likely because of the sound they create against the chords when used melodically. Playing the third or the major seventh in nothing special. The 3rd is a chord tone of the dom 7th chord so its only natural to play it against those types of chords. The maj 7th is a dissonace in the dom 7th hormonic scheme that can be resolved by a half step resolution in either direction. Remember, the b3 is really the +9. Playing a b3 against a dom 7th creates the sound of +9 chord. Hendrix used em all the time! LOL! Remember Foxxy Lady?
Here's an example:
Lets say I play Bb7 in the key of Bb. If I want to create a melody or solo then I choose a scale. Let's say G min pentatonic. Why? I chose the scale because of the way it fits the chord. This scale as played against Bb7 is going to give me certain chord tones plus a couple of the extensions we talked about earlier.
The chord:
Bb D F Ab
The scale:
G Bb C D F
G is the 6th or 13th of the chord (an extension)
Bb is the root of the chord
C is the 9th of the chord (an extension)
D is the third
F is the fifth of the chord
So I know this scale will fit my chord because the chord and scales have certain notes in common plus the scale has a number of chord extensions that are valid.
Now if I convert my min pentatonic to a blues scale then I get more extensions! Thats it! b9s, 9ths, +9ths, 11ths, +11ths, 13ths! You get the idea?
The scale is chosen because of the melody that it will produce when played against the chord. The scale is not ment to dictate how the chords are built within the tune. It's chosen simply for the melody it will produce vs the harmony at that given moment.
There are only so many blues progressions. It is best that you go about learning them and forget about this idea that a mode/scale or key signature should dictate what types of chords to use. You have placed modes and scales out of their proper place. At least where blues is concerned. All of the work has already been done for you. The many variations of blues progressions have already been explored.
As I stated before software like Band-in-a-Box has a database of over 80 blues progressions. If you can't afford software of that sort then get some other encyclopedia and learn those progressions. If you need to write a tune then please use one of the existing variations! Unless you're doing a Jeff Beck, Blow by Blow blues style you're gonna end up using one of the standard blues progressions anyway!
Once you have the progression down then start crafting melodies or solos by chosing scales based on what the scale has in common with the given chord plus the extensions that the scale has to offer.
Toad:
You forgot about the extensions I talked about in the earlier posts. Also this key signature stuff has really got you rattled. There are no rules that say a chord has to be voiced a certain way (major/minor) just because of the underlying key signature or scale. All of the elements can exist independent of one another. We're talking modern music here!
The scales, pentatonic, blues and otherwise are chosen most likely because of the sound they create against the chords when used melodically. Playing the third or the major seventh in nothing special. The 3rd is a chord tone of the dom 7th chord so its only natural to play it against those types of chords. The maj 7th is a dissonace in the dom 7th hormonic scheme that can be resolved by a half step resolution in either direction. Remember, the b3 is really the +9. Playing a b3 against a dom 7th creates the sound of +9 chord. Hendrix used em all the time! LOL! Remember Foxxy Lady?
Here's an example:
Lets say I play Bb7 in the key of Bb. If I want to create a melody or solo then I choose a scale. Let's say G min pentatonic. Why? I chose the scale because of the way it fits the chord. This scale as played against Bb7 is going to give me certain chord tones plus a couple of the extensions we talked about earlier.
The chord:
Bb D F Ab
The scale:
G Bb C D F
G is the 6th or 13th of the chord (an extension)
Bb is the root of the chord
C is the 9th of the chord (an extension)
D is the third
F is the fifth of the chord
So I know this scale will fit my chord because the chord and scales have certain notes in common plus the scale has a number of chord extensions that are valid.
Now if I convert my min pentatonic to a blues scale then I get more extensions! Thats it! b9s, 9ths, +9ths, 11ths, +11ths, 13ths! You get the idea?
The scale is chosen because of the melody that it will produce when played against the chord. The scale is not ment to dictate how the chords are built within the tune. It's chosen simply for the melody it will produce vs the harmony at that given moment.
There are only so many blues progressions. It is best that you go about learning them and forget about this idea that a mode/scale or key signature should dictate what types of chords to use. You have placed modes and scales out of their proper place. At least where blues is concerned. All of the work has already been done for you. The many variations of blues progressions have already been explored.
As I stated before software like Band-in-a-Box has a database of over 80 blues progressions. If you can't afford software of that sort then get some other encyclopedia and learn those progressions. If you need to write a tune then please use one of the existing variations! Unless you're doing a Jeff Beck, Blow by Blow blues style you're gonna end up using one of the standard blues progressions anyway!
Once you have the progression down then start crafting melodies or solos by chosing scales based on what the scale has in common with the given chord plus the extensions that the scale has to offer.
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Guitar Toad
Toadily Stratologist
Re: Chords and Modes
They made me do it. A while back I asked a question about modes. Then they said I had to learn them all and be familiar with the sound of each. Then I asked about the blues and they told me that blues is the constructed off the 6th degree of the related major scale. From there I guess I had just enough information to be dangerous. I didn’t start in the right place. I’ve been working my way backwards.
I agree with you. I can’t deny it. I wouldn’t say that I’m rattled, but I am confused or a bit tangled. I appreciate the help to get untangled. I really tried to avoid getting into formal discussions of music. But, it seems to be unavoidable. It hasn’t hurt too much so far. I'm asking questions to get this stuff straightened out. For the record, when I say "I want to write music" that’s simply my way of learning to understanding how a bluesman or musician might think as he or she is putting together a tune. If a skilled musician is thinking and composing, I want to understand those thought processes. Therefore, I invented this statement "if I want to write". But, I do hope to produce an original piece of music or two before I’m done. My building block will mostly likely be on progressions that have already been worked out by others.
I was trying to resist thinking about chord extensions. They just seem too advanced for me at this point. Now, I’ll take them seriously, obviously they are great to have in the toolbox. I’ll work with them to begin getting a sense of how each one sounds. To figure out a chord extension, begin counting at the root note of the chord.
Okay then, the chord: Bb D F Ab played over the G minor pentatonic: G Bb C D F. Onesei, you didn't name the Ab in that context. The Bb7 (Bb D F Ab) chord played against the G minor pentatonic is called a Bb7+11?
I can relax and be less rigid. The scale of a melody need not exactly match the notes of the harmony chords. They work differently, but together they produce beautiful, ear pleasing music. Plus with blues, it’s a much less formal, and more vocal musical form.
Know and use chords and their extensions.
They made me do it. A while back I asked a question about modes. Then they said I had to learn them all and be familiar with the sound of each. Then I asked about the blues and they told me that blues is the constructed off the 6th degree of the related major scale. From there I guess I had just enough information to be dangerous. I didn’t start in the right place. I’ve been working my way backwards.
I agree with you. I can’t deny it. I wouldn’t say that I’m rattled, but I am confused or a bit tangled. I appreciate the help to get untangled. I really tried to avoid getting into formal discussions of music. But, it seems to be unavoidable. It hasn’t hurt too much so far. I'm asking questions to get this stuff straightened out. For the record, when I say "I want to write music" that’s simply my way of learning to understanding how a bluesman or musician might think as he or she is putting together a tune. If a skilled musician is thinking and composing, I want to understand those thought processes. Therefore, I invented this statement "if I want to write". But, I do hope to produce an original piece of music or two before I’m done. My building block will mostly likely be on progressions that have already been worked out by others.
- Listen and learn from what has already been done. In the blues and the jazz worlds.
- Don’t let the key signature rigidly lock me into the notes of that scale. Additional notes are often needed and often recommended as per the previous posts in this thread.
- I need to learn how to separately melody and harmony.
- Don’t let the key, scale, or mode dictate what chords can be used. Let your ear and the tune work together to determine what chords will or will not work with the overall tone of the song.
- Use triads, major, minor, 7th’s, major 7th’s, and make good use of the many possible and useful chord extensions.
- Don’t try this at home. Get the existing stuff down before generating new stuff. Generating new stuff, even by the truly gifted, will use progressions and forms that are already well established.
I was trying to resist thinking about chord extensions. They just seem too advanced for me at this point. Now, I’ll take them seriously, obviously they are great to have in the toolbox. I’ll work with them to begin getting a sense of how each one sounds. To figure out a chord extension, begin counting at the root note of the chord.
Okay then, the chord: Bb D F Ab played over the G minor pentatonic: G Bb C D F. Onesei, you didn't name the Ab in that context. The Bb7 (Bb D F Ab) chord played against the G minor pentatonic is called a Bb7+11?
I can relax and be less rigid. The scale of a melody need not exactly match the notes of the harmony chords. They work differently, but together they produce beautiful, ear pleasing music. Plus with blues, it’s a much less formal, and more vocal musical form.
Know and use chords and their extensions.
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Re: Chords and Modes
Very well. I use the extensions all the time. They make for some pleasing melodies when used in the proper context. For traditional styles Blues, Jazz, Rock and R & B extensions are used mainly as passing tones that bridge the gap between two diatonic notes. For more progressive styles like free/modal jazz or fusion, extensions can play a more prominent role in the melody as a more progressive sound may be desired.
Experience is the best teacher. If you get carried away by being too analytical you will find yourself spending too much time trying to put stuff together and too little time actually playing anything. Play and develop "your sound" first. Once you get your unique playing style down you'll be surprised how easily ideas will start to come. Use existing chord progressions by learning all the standards in your genre. Your theory is useful when you are ready to craft solos. You can also analyse melodies from those standards but don't become an analytical book worm! Playing and gaining experience are the most important things.
The only two extensions in the Gmin pent. scale above are the G and the C. The rest are chord tones and therefore would not drastically alter the sound of the chord. The G would be the 13th. Playing the note G against the Bb7 chord would result in a Bb13 chord sound. C is the 9th and would create a Bb9 chord sound. Play a dom7#9 on your guitar. That #9 should reveal why the b3 works against a dom7 chord.
When trying to separate scales and harmony make sure you know everything about the harmony (alterations and extensions that can exist). For example in many improvisational styles the rhythm section will often omit the 5th of the chord. So if a soloist sees a C7 they are free to treat it any way that they please. A soloist may choose to alter the 5th in their solo and interpret that C7 as C7, C7b5, or C7+. Likewise that C7 can be interpreted as any extended chord by the soloist playing any of the chord extensions. Spelling the chord out using the method in my previous post is a perfect way to find new scales that are compatible with a given chord. All of the scales that can be used against that chord are subsets of the chord domain/universe as I have illustrated above.
Very well. I use the extensions all the time. They make for some pleasing melodies when used in the proper context. For traditional styles Blues, Jazz, Rock and R & B extensions are used mainly as passing tones that bridge the gap between two diatonic notes. For more progressive styles like free/modal jazz or fusion, extensions can play a more prominent role in the melody as a more progressive sound may be desired.
Experience is the best teacher. If you get carried away by being too analytical you will find yourself spending too much time trying to put stuff together and too little time actually playing anything. Play and develop "your sound" first. Once you get your unique playing style down you'll be surprised how easily ideas will start to come. Use existing chord progressions by learning all the standards in your genre. Your theory is useful when you are ready to craft solos. You can also analyse melodies from those standards but don't become an analytical book worm! Playing and gaining experience are the most important things.
The only two extensions in the Gmin pent. scale above are the G and the C. The rest are chord tones and therefore would not drastically alter the sound of the chord. The G would be the 13th. Playing the note G against the Bb7 chord would result in a Bb13 chord sound. C is the 9th and would create a Bb9 chord sound. Play a dom7#9 on your guitar. That #9 should reveal why the b3 works against a dom7 chord.
When trying to separate scales and harmony make sure you know everything about the harmony (alterations and extensions that can exist). For example in many improvisational styles the rhythm section will often omit the 5th of the chord. So if a soloist sees a C7 they are free to treat it any way that they please. A soloist may choose to alter the 5th in their solo and interpret that C7 as C7, C7b5, or C7+. Likewise that C7 can be interpreted as any extended chord by the soloist playing any of the chord extensions. Spelling the chord out using the method in my previous post is a perfect way to find new scales that are compatible with a given chord. All of the scales that can be used against that chord are subsets of the chord domain/universe as I have illustrated above.
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Guitar Toad
Toadily Stratologist
Re: Chords and Modes
Osensei, thank you for your great patience and willingness to share your extensive knowledge. I don't know that I can properly compensate you or thank you approriately. You are a terrific teacher. I'll take some time to stop asking questions and spend time playing and digest the stuff of this thead. You have been very kind to entertain my pedantic queries. Few guys would have been willing to entertain my questions as long as you have.
Thanks.
Osensei, thank you for your great patience and willingness to share your extensive knowledge. I don't know that I can properly compensate you or thank you approriately. You are a terrific teacher. I'll take some time to stop asking questions and spend time playing and digest the stuff of this thead. You have been very kind to entertain my pedantic queries. Few guys would have been willing to entertain my questions as long as you have.
Thanks.
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Guitar Toad
Toadily Stratologist
Re: Chords and Modes
I'd like to learn more about the tritone.
Also, I may need to learn from the bebop masters...
I found the following information from the Wikipedia entry for bebop.
Although the bebop genre is largely for horns and piano, a guitarist may be able to learn a great deal from the bebop musicians. Apparently, bebop carries responsibility to the flatted 5th.
Osensei said:
I'd like to learn more about the tritone.
Also, I may need to learn from the bebop masters...
I found the following information from the Wikipedia entry for bebop.
Although the bebop genre is largely for horns and piano, a guitarist may be able to learn a great deal from the bebop musicians. Apparently, bebop carries responsibility to the flatted 5th.
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Re: Chords and Modes
I'm sure that Debussy and Ravel would disagree with that statement, but neither of those two argue much these days! LMAO!
The tritone is simply a substitution for the V chord in a II-V-I progression. So you end up with II-bII-I instead or Dmin7-Db7-Cmaj7. You can play around with it if you like. By that I mean try different variations of the chords like:
Dmin7-Db(b9)-C69, Dmin7-Db(13)-Cmaj7+11, Dmin7-Db(9)-Cmin7 and so on. I like to do stuff like that in Latin styles like Salsa, Mombo, Samba and Bossa Nova but oviously there are more applications for it.
I'm sure that Debussy and Ravel would disagree with that statement, but neither of those two argue much these days! LMAO!
The tritone is simply a substitution for the V chord in a II-V-I progression. So you end up with II-bII-I instead or Dmin7-Db7-Cmaj7. You can play around with it if you like. By that I mean try different variations of the chords like:
Dmin7-Db(b9)-C69, Dmin7-Db(13)-Cmaj7+11, Dmin7-Db(9)-Cmin7 and so on. I like to do stuff like that in Latin styles like Salsa, Mombo, Samba and Bossa Nova but oviously there are more applications for it.
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tone4days
Heel Whacker
Re: Chords and Modes
+1 ... to me, nothing creates a more latin feel faster than alternating the bass note back and forth between the root and the b5 ... play E7#9 and Bb13 back and forth with these two voicings ... i play this with thumb and fingers - the thumb alternates those bass notes and the fingers claw the other three notes in the voicing .. works with other combos too ... just drop that 5th string bass note down a fret and over to the 6th string and you are doin' the 'sub flat 5 juju'Osensei said:
Code:
E7#9 Bb13
---- ----
-8-- -8--
-7-- -7--
-6-- -6--
-7-- ----
---- -6--
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Re: Chords and Modes
+1 Tone! LOL! We do the same stuff! Tito Puente style Salsa's and Mambo's are my favorites along with classic Jobim style Bossa Nova. But I also love the Brazilian pop style Bossa Nova! Stuff like Djavan, Nascimento, Dori Caymi and others. Glad to hear you groove like that man!
In styles like Jobim you will often run across plenty of chords with 11 th's and 13ths. Remember that guitarists only have 4 fingers with the possibility of the thumb to finger one handed chords. That is unless you're playing leggato style these days. Even then having only 6 strings to play on remains an obstacle although its not completely insurmountable.
Because of these limitations you quickly start to realize that the various raised or lowered 11'ths and 13th's can actually be played as dim or aug 5ths (altered). This is the advantage of working things out on the piano first. It makes this sort of thing easy to see.
So in this scenario if you see C7#11 you can play C7b5. C13 becomes C6. C7b13 becomes C7+. All of which are fingerable with only the four fingers of the left hand. Sorry left handers for leaving you out! LOL! But I did save a bunch on money on my car insurance by swithing to ...
+1 Tone! LOL! We do the same stuff! Tito Puente style Salsa's and Mambo's are my favorites along with classic Jobim style Bossa Nova. But I also love the Brazilian pop style Bossa Nova! Stuff like Djavan, Nascimento, Dori Caymi and others. Glad to hear you groove like that man!
In styles like Jobim you will often run across plenty of chords with 11 th's and 13ths. Remember that guitarists only have 4 fingers with the possibility of the thumb to finger one handed chords. That is unless you're playing leggato style these days. Even then having only 6 strings to play on remains an obstacle although its not completely insurmountable.
Because of these limitations you quickly start to realize that the various raised or lowered 11'ths and 13th's can actually be played as dim or aug 5ths (altered). This is the advantage of working things out on the piano first. It makes this sort of thing easy to see.
So in this scenario if you see C7#11 you can play C7b5. C13 becomes C6. C7b13 becomes C7+. All of which are fingerable with only the four fingers of the left hand. Sorry left handers for leaving you out! LOL! But I did save a bunch on money on my car insurance by swithing to ...
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tone4days
Heel Whacker
Re: Chords and Modes
yeah, being in a band with an acoustic guitarist, another electric guitarist, and a keyboard player (as well as an 'all over the place' bassist), i never have to worry about full chords .... i get to be the 'court jester of chord fragments', usually chirpin' in with 3-note clusters made up of 3rds, 7ths, and then the altered or extended notes ... and i invert them all the time so i might play the 9th or 11th on the low E or A string.... its cool to not play roots or fifths anymore
...
yeah, being in a band with an acoustic guitarist, another electric guitarist, and a keyboard player (as well as an 'all over the place' bassist), i never have to worry about full chords .... i get to be the 'court jester of chord fragments', usually chirpin' in with 3-note clusters made up of 3rds, 7ths, and then the altered or extended notes ... and i invert them all the time so i might play the 9th or 11th on the low E or A string.... its cool to not play roots or fifths anymore
...
tone4days
Heel Whacker
Re: Chords and Modes
oh man, too true .. the drummer put the band together from among friends, without respect to talent or 'need' ... just people he thought would get along and have fun ... he did a good job on that account, but we could lose any two of those 3 and i'd be happier
t4d
oh man, too true .. the drummer put the band together from among friends, without respect to talent or 'need' ... just people he thought would get along and have fun ... he did a good job on that account, but we could lose any two of those 3 and i'd be happier
t4d
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