Compensated claw?

[Lewguitar]

Re: Compensated claw?

Speaking for myself I don't totally rule out that you can get an effect from uneven spring loading (whatever way you choose). However the way I see it it requires that you either end up bending the baseplate, or wiggle inside the screws. Both of which I don't think will happen, but I don't it's impossible. In any case, even if so that would be uncontrolled, that is why I call "I wanna see that" on the chord thing.

Why do you have to bend the plate? What you're doing by angling the claw is making the springs on one side match the tension of the strings on that side and the springs on the other side match the tension of the strings on the other side.

Clearly, at least to me, the E, A & D strings are a differnet tension than the G, B and high E strings.

Seems to me that the springs need to match that tension on each side..

 

[LReese]

Re: Compensated claw?

Carl certainly gets a great result out of the setup. Not going to question that.

Keeping physics to simplest matters, it appears to be BS.

However, I never saw where Carl said how his mounting screws are adjusted (I'm not watching the vid again). What if...

-They are a little looser than normal?
I could see a case where a tendency for one side move on the screws vs the other when spring tension on the individual strings don't quite match.
Maybe his ears are sensitive to the reverberation from the springs
I guess a bridge that's a little cocked might change intervals slightly.

We all have our "ways" we like stuff setup. Some might not appear to be the norm. Its his way.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Compensated claw?

Why do you have to bend the plate? What you're doing by angling the claw is making the springs on one side match the tension of the strings on that side and the springs on the other side match the tension of the strings on the other side.

Clearly, at least to me, the E, A & D strings are a differnet tension than the G, B and high E strings.

Seems to me that the springs need to match that tension on each side..

Thats why I stopped using regular sets of 10s and made my own custom gauges based off of the D'addario tension charts and their balanced tension sets.

Does the angled claw work for tuning stability I highly doubt it seeing as that is more of the nut/bridge that effects tuning the most, but as for does it make the trem feel easier or smoother I don't know, but I would go for softer lower tension springs and balanced tension in my strings before trying to angle the claw.

As for it being made of brass yes a brass claw does make a difference in tone.

I think if you have even tension across all strings (ex. 16.0lbs roughly on each string) you will find that even tension and feel most are looking for in a trem.

 

[LReese]

Re: Compensated claw?

Does the angled claw work for tuning stability I highly doubt it seeing as that is more of the nut/bridge that effects tuning the most, but as for does it make the trem feel easier or smoother I don't know, but I would go for softer lower tension springs and balanced tension in my strings before trying to angle the claw.

As for it being made of brass yes a brass claw does make a difference in tone.

But a Floyd (or 2 post) is a different animal vs a Fender 6 screw. The Fender does tend to slide a little against the mounting screws.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Compensated claw?

But a Floyd (or 2 post) is a different animal vs a Fender 6 screw. The Fender does tend to slide a little against the mounting screws.

Which caused by a design flaw that is caused by how the steel plate is cut on the bottom which Mr. Callahan has corrected in making his trems. But yes with a vintage 6 screw that is one more factor to tuning stability.

 

[LReese]

Re: Compensated claw?

Carl's likely got a Fender, not a Callaham.

Callaham's not perfect either, I've got one right here that I pulled off a Fender (and put the stock one back on) for tonal reasons. It's impeccably machined though, but for my money, I'd rather go with Gotoh if I were buying a vintage spec bridge..

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Compensated claw?

Carl's likely got a Fender, not a Callaham.

Callaham's not perfect either, I've got one right here that I pulled off a Fender (and put the stock one back on) for tonal reasons. It's impeccably machined though, but for my money, I'd rather go with Gotoh if I were buying a vintage spec bridge..

What was wrong with the Callaham trem? And yea the cheapest best modern vintage spec trem i've seen so far is gotoh.

 

[LReese]

Re: Compensated claw?

It sounded a bit brighter than the Fender. On a 50s CS reissue it mattered, actually was a little too much brightness.

Yeah, the Gotoh was a screaming bargain - Think I paid $60 give or take for the Steel Block version. They do bridges right. 510 is my current favorite.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Compensated claw?

Why do you have to bend the plate? What you're doing by angling the claw is making the springs on one side match the tension of the strings on that side and the springs on the other side match the tension of the strings on the other side.

Clearly, at least to me, the E, A & D strings are a differnet tension than the G, B and high E strings.

Seems to me that the springs need to match that tension on each side..

But both tension and tuning are dictated by where the string's attachment moves to. I don't see how the asymmetric spring loading on the bottom leads to a different position (per string) of either the saddle on top or the bottom anchor of the strings. The only possible way would be a bent baseplate (since you obviously don't bent the block) but I don't see that happening, there just isn't enough force involved.

I also don't see the shift in the screw holes, as the strings still drag it forward, I bet it's still all solid (unless dive-bombing).

An experiment to prove or disprove this theory would be to only use springs on one side and none at all on the other. If the block is rigid that shouldn't make a difference either. If there is a difference that I/we can't see then this experiment would make the difference big enough to measure.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Compensated claw?

It sounded a bit brighter than the Fender. On a 50s CS reissue it mattered, actually was a little too much brightness.

Yeah, the Gotoh was a screaming bargain - Think I paid $60 give or take for the Steel Block version. They do bridges right. 510 is my current favorite.

Guitarfetish also sells you a $20 steel block for trems like the MIJ/CIA Fender that are overall OK but have a zinc block.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: Compensated claw?

Meh

Pass

.02

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Compensated claw?

LOL!! my posting was wondering if angling the claw had much merit. I mean if its beneficial, then I could adjust the mount screws on my current claw to angle it. I do have some of the KGC claws and they are nicely made and easy to mount the ground.

 

[Farkus]

Re: Compensated claw?

I have to admit I've never understood the benefit of angling the claw.

Basic physics would suggest that regardless of the individual tension of the bass versus the treble strings they exert a "total" tension on the trem...if you think about a fixed bridge Strat and ignore the trem completely I think it makes more sense...the tension is cumulative and the tension from all the strings balances out due to the fact that the bridge is fixed and cannot be pulled from side to side (unless it's broken in some way).

Vibratos/trems, while not fixed bridges, still have fixed points where tension/force is distributed (this being a at two points for an AS trem or 6 points for a vintage Strat style unit) and are not moveable in a rotational fashion (once again unless it's broken in some way). As a result the trem block, which is typically not moveable either, should see the same distributed tension. You can angle the trem all you want and it will balance that way but in theory should be no different that balancing it with the claw set even; of course how deep the claw is screwed in makes a difference because that alters the tension on the springs but...if the bass side (for example) is screwed in deeper than it needs to be for a particular setting of the trem you'll just need to adjust the treble less deep to compensate anyway...the total force should be the same.

Does this work in practice? I'd like to see it demonstrated. I'm going to try it myself on my next Strat setup.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Compensated claw?

LOL!! my posting was wondering if angling the claw had much merit. I mean if its beneficial, then I could adjust the mount screws on my current claw to angle it. I do have some of the KGC claws and they are nicely made and easy to mount the ground.

When a virtuoso with 1000's and 1000's of hours of gigging and recording time like Carl Verheyen suggests trying it, why not try it? Won't cost you a penny.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Compensated claw?

The thing i dont get is...
Carl says the B string has the most tension and the A string has the least. He also says that the higher strings have more tension than the lower strings.
So wouldn't that mean you need more spring tension on the high strings (i.e. the opposite to what he does) to balance the fulcrum?

Obviously im no virtuoso like of Carl Verheyen, but this works pretty good for stability and feel:

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Compensated claw?

When a virtuoso with 1000's and 1000's of hours of gigging and recording time like Carl Verheyen suggests trying it, why not try it? Won't cost you a penny.

Carl has found a solid formula for ensuring the tension is perfect, and it involves tilting the claw. That's great, but it's just one method to achieve the intended result, which is perfect spring tension.

The tension on the bridge = tension of each spring, added together. It's that simple. Tilting the claw means each spring will have different tension, but that's not important. The only thing that matters is how the TOTAL spring tension relates to the TOTAL string tension. The Strat bridge is a rigid unit that pivots on a single axis, and can't possibly be affected by tension being different on one side or another.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Compensated claw?

Carl has found a solid formula for ensuring the tension is perfect, and it involves tilting the claw. That's great, but it's just one method to achieve the intended result, which is perfect spring tension.

The tension on the bridge = tension of each spring, added together. It's that simple. Tilting the claw means each spring will have different tension, but that's not important. The only thing that matters is how the TOTAL spring tension relates to the TOTAL string tension. The Strat bridge is a rigid unit that pivots on a single axis, and can't possibly be affected by tension being different on one side or another.

Well, again, I'm going to go with the virtuoso with 1000's and 1000's of hours of playing, recording and gigging experience on this one.

Because in this real world, in this real physical universe (not the dream world of our thoughts and theories) his method works and it doesn't cost a penny.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Compensated claw?

I still say the actual string tension plays a bigger part then the claw angle.

TENSION CHART
Diameter Tension
Item # Note Inches mm lbs kg
PL010 E 0.0100 0.2500 16.220 7.360

PL013 B 0.0130 0.3300 15.390 6.980

PL017 G 0.0170 0.4300 16.580 7.520

NW026 D 0.0260 0.6604 18.380 8.340

NW036 A 0.0360 0.9144 19.040 8.640

NW046 E 0.0460 1.1684 16.910 7.670

^This is how uneven the tension is in a regular set of 10s. If you want equal tension on both sides you need close to equal springs along with equal tension on all strings.





Diameter Tension
Item # Note Inches mm lbs kg
PL010 E 0.0100 0.2500 16.220 7.360

PL0135 B 0.0135 0.3400 16.590 7.530

PL017 G 0.0170 0.4300 16.580 7.520

NW024 D 0.0240 0.6090 15.730 7.130

NW032 A 0.0320 0.8120 15.500 7.030

NW044 E 0.0440 1.1176 15.610 7.080

^This is a custom set I came up with which is still in the testing stages but I use a wound 18 gauge G string instead of a plain 17 but they both have the same amount of tension.

 

[J E C]

Re: Compensated claw?

Well, it looks kinda cool. But.....the way he has set his guitar up so that he gets those rises in pitch/pitches has nothing to do with the claw being angled. You can do the same thing with the claw being strait across by adjusting the tension of the springs in relationship to the strings so that the bridge is pitched forward at the proper angle. It's the same thing that Jeff Beck dos as well as numerous other players. Angling the claw to balance the spring tension to string tension side to side I believe could very likely prevent binding between the bridge plate and the "6" screws that secure it to the body, which would make it function smoother and help with tuning stability. But as mentioned earlier you can do that with a plane old claw, so I wouldn't waste my money on there new fangled one....unless I wanted a brass one anyway. I don't think angling the claw would help with a "2" post bridge though.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Compensated claw?

Well, again, I'm going to go with the virtuoso with 1000's and 1000's of hours of playing, recording and gigging experience on this one.

Because in this real world, in this real physical universe (not the dream world of our thoughts and theories) his method works and it doesn't cost a penny.

Of course it works. It's a method that produces perfect spring tension. It's not the ONLY way to produce perfect spring tension though. This is one of those "a thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters" scenarios.

If you think high-school-level physics is a "dream world", then there's obviously nothing else anyone can say on this subject that will get through to you.