Coppercaster
- Thread starter AniML
- Start date
rgand
New member
Re: Coppercaster
It would seem that the consensus is that no matter what you do with it, it'll look good. So, that in mind, what suits your fancy best?You guys would be more help if there was any consensus of opinion
Taz Rules
New member
AniML
New member
AniML
New member
Re: Coppercaster
I've never seen it recommended to scuff a metallic finish. Not the greatest phone camera, but what are you seeing that you hope I am respraying?
I'm starting to lean towards black rings and pups.
I've never seen it recommended to scuff a metallic finish. Not the greatest phone camera, but what are you seeing that you hope I am respraying?
Taz Rules
New member
Re: Coppercaster
Depending on the type of paint you use, it is highly recommended that if the basecoat has passed its "open time" (usually between 4-24 hours depending on paint), that you scuff the surface with 600 or 800 grit before spraying clear.
The reason for this is that the basecoat is designed to be receptive to both chemical and mechanical adhesion during the open time window. Once that window is closed, the solvents that promote chemical adhesion have dissipated. Also the miniature ridges (called "tooth") have been eroded and worn down, giving the clearcoat less grip mechanically. The chemical grip cannot be regained without a respray (which also requires scuffing, btw), but the mechanical grip is re-created by the scuff.
Beyond that, any skin oils, pollution from the air such as smoke, dust, etc, settles on the paint and, because base coat is a bit rough, sits in the remaining tooth. This can cause fisheyes and outright lifting on your clearcoat at worst, and milkiness and splotchy loss of gloss can also result.
Scuffing a metallic finish will lead to black streaks following your sanding pattern. This is the result of the metallic particles in the paint oxidizing, which happens almost instantly. You may not see it right away when you scuff, but you sure will after you apply clear. This would be why he recommended that you respray your base color coat. Once sprayed, follow with clear as soon as the base has "flashed off" (gone matte is the easiest way to tell), or within the open time window.
FYI, this information comes from years as an automotive painter with automotive paints and show-quality cars. The basic principles apply across the board, but the specific paint you used may not have the same requirements for adhesion, especially if its not automotive paint. You can do some research to find out if you can get away without a respray or even scuffing. At the very least, though, give it a wipe with a good quality degreaser (Limco 203, ProForm Final Wipe) before you apply clear.
Not telling you how you have to do it, just trying to be helpful. I'd hate to see that beautiful color not turn out perfect.
(BTW, if you use automotive clear, you get a glass-like finish by wetsanding with 1000 by hand, followed by 1500 by hand, 2000 by hand, using lots of water and short strokes. wrap your paper around a sanding sponge to avoid "finger tracks"
3000 Trizact (a 3M product), 5000 Trizact using a DA sander with a short throw (the 3000 and 5000 are optional, but ideal)
follow with polishing with 3m white on a foam pad (or a good quality rubbing compound), 3m black on a finer foam pad (or a good quality polish), and finish with 3m blue on the finest foam (or a good quality glaze). wipe compound, polish and glaze with a microfiber cloth between steps. This can be done 24-48 hours after the clearcoat has been sprayed. There is no real time limit to when you can wet sand and polish after that, but be aware that the longer you wait, the harder the finish and more labour intensive the polishing will be.)
***EDIT****
I looked up Duplicolor paints (you mentioned it in your first post)
Here is the FAQ page... http://duplicolor.com/faq
It mentions a lot of the stuff I said above, if you need clarification directly from the source (always a good idea!)
Depending on the type of paint you use, it is highly recommended that if the basecoat has passed its "open time" (usually between 4-24 hours depending on paint), that you scuff the surface with 600 or 800 grit before spraying clear.
The reason for this is that the basecoat is designed to be receptive to both chemical and mechanical adhesion during the open time window. Once that window is closed, the solvents that promote chemical adhesion have dissipated. Also the miniature ridges (called "tooth") have been eroded and worn down, giving the clearcoat less grip mechanically. The chemical grip cannot be regained without a respray (which also requires scuffing, btw), but the mechanical grip is re-created by the scuff.
Beyond that, any skin oils, pollution from the air such as smoke, dust, etc, settles on the paint and, because base coat is a bit rough, sits in the remaining tooth. This can cause fisheyes and outright lifting on your clearcoat at worst, and milkiness and splotchy loss of gloss can also result.
Scuffing a metallic finish will lead to black streaks following your sanding pattern. This is the result of the metallic particles in the paint oxidizing, which happens almost instantly. You may not see it right away when you scuff, but you sure will after you apply clear. This would be why he recommended that you respray your base color coat. Once sprayed, follow with clear as soon as the base has "flashed off" (gone matte is the easiest way to tell), or within the open time window.
FYI, this information comes from years as an automotive painter with automotive paints and show-quality cars. The basic principles apply across the board, but the specific paint you used may not have the same requirements for adhesion, especially if its not automotive paint. You can do some research to find out if you can get away without a respray or even scuffing. At the very least, though, give it a wipe with a good quality degreaser (Limco 203, ProForm Final Wipe) before you apply clear.
Not telling you how you have to do it, just trying to be helpful. I'd hate to see that beautiful color not turn out perfect.
(BTW, if you use automotive clear, you get a glass-like finish by wetsanding with 1000 by hand, followed by 1500 by hand, 2000 by hand, using lots of water and short strokes. wrap your paper around a sanding sponge to avoid "finger tracks"
3000 Trizact (a 3M product), 5000 Trizact using a DA sander with a short throw (the 3000 and 5000 are optional, but ideal)
follow with polishing with 3m white on a foam pad (or a good quality rubbing compound), 3m black on a finer foam pad (or a good quality polish), and finish with 3m blue on the finest foam (or a good quality glaze). wipe compound, polish and glaze with a microfiber cloth between steps. This can be done 24-48 hours after the clearcoat has been sprayed. There is no real time limit to when you can wet sand and polish after that, but be aware that the longer you wait, the harder the finish and more labour intensive the polishing will be.)
***EDIT****
I looked up Duplicolor paints (you mentioned it in your first post)
Here is the FAQ page... http://duplicolor.com/faq
It mentions a lot of the stuff I said above, if you need clarification directly from the source (always a good idea!)
Last edited:
AniML
New member
Re: Coppercaster
Taz, Thanks for all the detailed info and advice. I used Duplicolor metallic once before on a guitar a few years ago. It came out great... not perfect but for an amatuer hobbiest, I am more than satisfied. And so far it has held up. I think Duplicolor is the most user friendly rattle cans out there. Ive tried Reranch (no doubt great product,but probably better for someone with more experience) Graceys, and even Mopar cans, both of which were very frustrating to use.
I did not scuff either guitar but applied 3 color coats within a couple days of each other and then started clear within 2 days of that. (Yes i started clearing the copper build). For clear I use minwax acrylic lacquer. Love the stuff for clear coat as much as the Duplicolor for color coats. As a pro you might understandably think differently of it, but I've got great results with both.
Hopefully this one will come out as good as or better than my others. As long as it looks like a really good hobbiest job Im happy. I dont have a lot of experience, so I'm keeping realistic with my expectations, but still always trying to learn and improve.
Thanks again
Taz, Thanks for all the detailed info and advice. I used Duplicolor metallic once before on a guitar a few years ago. It came out great... not perfect but for an amatuer hobbiest, I am more than satisfied. And so far it has held up. I think Duplicolor is the most user friendly rattle cans out there. Ive tried Reranch (no doubt great product,but probably better for someone with more experience) Graceys, and even Mopar cans, both of which were very frustrating to use.
I did not scuff either guitar but applied 3 color coats within a couple days of each other and then started clear within 2 days of that. (Yes i started clearing the copper build). For clear I use minwax acrylic lacquer. Love the stuff for clear coat as much as the Duplicolor for color coats. As a pro you might understandably think differently of it, but I've got great results with both.
Hopefully this one will come out as good as or better than my others. As long as it looks like a really good hobbiest job Im happy. I dont have a lot of experience, so I'm keeping realistic with my expectations, but still always trying to learn and improve.
Thanks again
Taz Rules
New member
Re: Coppercaster
Hey AniML,
Glad to share info. I was under the impression that you put down base coat quite a while ago and left it at that. What you described above is likely well within the parameters of rattle-can paint (the cans tend to be much more forgiving on procedures and times that regular auto paints), so you likely won't have issues. Glad to hear you started a clear down basically right after the basecoat. That was important, and I'm glad you got it down. Your description above sounds like you got it done right.
Incidentally, you can scuff that clear with 800 and lay more clear down on it if you like. If you have a few coats of clear, it gives you enough build up that you can follow the wet-sand and polish procedure I outlined above, and you will get almost a show-car shine out of rattle cans. Honest.
If you are happy with the finish as it is, then great! Less work! LOL
And btw, there's nothing wrong with rattle can paint. Its used more often than you might think, even in body shops! And its WAY WAY WAY cheaper than buying the auto paints, not to mention the compressor, guns, etc! Just make sure you wear a mask when spraying. Anything that sticks to your surface will also stick to the inside of your lungs!
Hey AniML,
Glad to share info. I was under the impression that you put down base coat quite a while ago and left it at that. What you described above is likely well within the parameters of rattle-can paint (the cans tend to be much more forgiving on procedures and times that regular auto paints), so you likely won't have issues. Glad to hear you started a clear down basically right after the basecoat. That was important, and I'm glad you got it down. Your description above sounds like you got it done right.
Incidentally, you can scuff that clear with 800 and lay more clear down on it if you like. If you have a few coats of clear, it gives you enough build up that you can follow the wet-sand and polish procedure I outlined above, and you will get almost a show-car shine out of rattle cans. Honest.
If you are happy with the finish as it is, then great! Less work! LOL
And btw, there's nothing wrong with rattle can paint. Its used more often than you might think, even in body shops! And its WAY WAY WAY cheaper than buying the auto paints, not to mention the compressor, guns, etc! Just make sure you wear a mask when spraying. Anything that sticks to your surface will also stick to the inside of your lungs!
Re: Coppercaster
I will emphasize the importance of scuffing the surface before spraying and spraying your coats (base and clear) in a close time proximity to maximize adherence/durability and quickness to complete the job. Typically you will wait until flash-off (~15 minutes) between coats through the entire paint session. So say you spray 3 coats of base and 2 coats of clear, you would be finished painting in ~1 hour versus dragging it out for days. Also spraying in one session reduces the risk of surface contamination. ***Disclaimer*** This all depends on the type of paint you're using and mixing paint types can get hairy so always read directions and use test panels first.
No matter what is that you are happy with the finished result. I do love that color and the guitar looks great! I am refinishing my 335 and was debating on using a similar color but with all of the taping for the binding (and possible scraping the binding before clearing) I'm thinking I will have too thick of paint in the end (using automotive paint, not nitro lacquer). I'm thinking of just clearing it and have the blonde look.
Also a tip for all of you can sprayers out there. Before spraying, heat your can up in some hot water (obviously don't boil it) to keep your pressure up and reduce sputtering.
Taz gave a GREAT response so I shall bow out as no other explanation is needed. I didn't realized you already sprayed clear as the pictures look matte so I assumed it was just base so please excuse the unneeded response although Taz's follow-up is very educational.
I will emphasize the importance of scuffing the surface before spraying and spraying your coats (base and clear) in a close time proximity to maximize adherence/durability and quickness to complete the job. Typically you will wait until flash-off (~15 minutes) between coats through the entire paint session. So say you spray 3 coats of base and 2 coats of clear, you would be finished painting in ~1 hour versus dragging it out for days. Also spraying in one session reduces the risk of surface contamination. ***Disclaimer*** This all depends on the type of paint you're using and mixing paint types can get hairy so always read directions and use test panels first.
No matter what is that you are happy with the finished result. I do love that color and the guitar looks great! I am refinishing my 335 and was debating on using a similar color but with all of the taping for the binding (and possible scraping the binding before clearing) I'm thinking I will have too thick of paint in the end (using automotive paint, not nitro lacquer). I'm thinking of just clearing it and have the blonde look.
Did you know they make 2k catalyzed poly clear in a can now? I would recommend this to all hobbyist as it will be the most durable clear coat finish you can get in a can: http://www.spraymax.de/index.php?id=361&L=1 Here is a decent review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yal4OwQyEno I have never used it but apparently it works VERY well.
Also a tip for all of you can sprayers out there. Before spraying, heat your can up in some hot water (obviously don't boil it) to keep your pressure up and reduce sputtering.
Last edited:
AniML
New member
Re: Coppercaster
^^ thanks again for the input. You were correct, All the pics (so far) in this thread are before I started clearcoating. But I have since laid down 3 coats of clear. I end up spreading it over a few days simply because of practicality - I spray outdoors hanging the body from a basketball net and need to fit in coats with favorable weather / wind conditions - and work.
Both the Duplicolor and Minwax are acrylic lacquer and from my experience are very compatible.
^^ thanks again for the input. You were correct, All the pics (so far) in this thread are before I started clearcoating. But I have since laid down 3 coats of clear. I end up spreading it over a few days simply because of practicality - I spray outdoors hanging the body from a basketball net and need to fit in coats with favorable weather / wind conditions - and work.
Both the Duplicolor and Minwax are acrylic lacquer and from my experience are very compatible.
