Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
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Joey Voltage
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
Sure, in dimarzios method of measurement, it is entirely plausible for the resonance frequency to fall with in the range of all harmonics generated by the test note, but it just further proves again that dcr correlation alone is a useless way to determine output, and although dimarzio's test method may have its inherent flaws, it is still data that can be used a tiny bit more reliably for these purposes than a bar graph ranging from 1-10 based on perception alone.
Where in the frequency spectrum those resonance peaks fall, and their quality factor, have a huge significance in perceived output, much more than any dcr reading could possibly relay.
Brand spanking new here. I run another forum based on loosely related subject matter. It never gets quite as messy over there because most people who join are somewhat established in the craft, so to speak. I have belonged to quite a few in the past as well, and I've seen it all.
No doubt, and if you read my first post in this topic, you will see I mentioned just that, however the point was that correlation is weak because not everything is held constant, and done so quite purposely. 7000 winds of 42awg might get you coil measuring 5.5k, while it may only take under 5000 winds of 44 on the same bobbin to reach that 5.5k dcr. we both know that while dcr is essentially the same for each coil, one of them has the potential for a greater field force to field flux ratio holding all other constants. And I know for a fact I don't have to mention to you that dcr doesn't necessarily imply more turns, it only somewhat implies more turns if everything else is held roughly constant - for two otherwise identical construction methods, i.e. Same size bobbin wire gauge and winding pattern, even the tightness and the uniformity of the wind have influence over the dcr as well. We both know that is certainly not always the case each design will follow a cookie cutter formula - not all high output pickups will have 6000-7000 turns of 44awg in a similar winding pattern, just as not every vintage output humbuckers will have 4000-5000 winds of 42.
Sure, in dimarzios method of measurement, it is entirely plausible for the resonance frequency to fall with in the range of all harmonics generated by the test note, but it just further proves again that dcr correlation alone is a useless way to determine output, and although dimarzio's test method may have its inherent flaws, it is still data that can be used a tiny bit more reliably for these purposes than a bar graph ranging from 1-10 based on perception alone.
Where in the frequency spectrum those resonance peaks fall, and their quality factor, have a huge significance in perceived output, much more than any dcr reading could possibly relay.
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Zheddar
New member
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
Wire coating, wind, and gauge both seem to have an effect, but the one constant I seem to notice more often directly correlating to how hot a pickup is or not, is the magnet. Take a JB and a Custom 5. The JB is hotter, but put an alnico 2 in the JB and a ceramic in the Custom, and the Custom becomes hotter. That's how Dimarzio has so many super hot pickups with lower then Custom resistance, many of them have double thick ceramic magnets. I almost always check magnets before I consider the resistance. When I finally do consider the resistance of a pickup, it's all about wire gauge and how that relates to it's resistance (which can make considering how hot a pickup will be tough because of all the damn snake oil secrecy). Then the fact that they put pickups like the Pearly Gates bridge in the "vintage" category, while putting the "Screamin' Demon" in the medium output category. The Pearly Gates is hotter than the Demon which is barely hotter than a 59 neck pickup. But in continuation, the magnet is often a good indicator before resistance is, but there is no tried and true rule when considering any of those stats, because, a pickup is the sum of it's parts and no single stat will tell you exactly who it is and how it sounds. Ok, off my soap box. Trying to defend the name Clint (mine), by proving some of use can see a bigger picture and are less stubborn. I meant it in the nicest way possible and love you though Clint 55.
Wire coating, wind, and gauge both seem to have an effect, but the one constant I seem to notice more often directly correlating to how hot a pickup is or not, is the magnet. Take a JB and a Custom 5. The JB is hotter, but put an alnico 2 in the JB and a ceramic in the Custom, and the Custom becomes hotter. That's how Dimarzio has so many super hot pickups with lower then Custom resistance, many of them have double thick ceramic magnets. I almost always check magnets before I consider the resistance. When I finally do consider the resistance of a pickup, it's all about wire gauge and how that relates to it's resistance (which can make considering how hot a pickup will be tough because of all the damn snake oil secrecy). Then the fact that they put pickups like the Pearly Gates bridge in the "vintage" category, while putting the "Screamin' Demon" in the medium output category. The Pearly Gates is hotter than the Demon which is barely hotter than a 59 neck pickup. But in continuation, the magnet is often a good indicator before resistance is, but there is no tried and true rule when considering any of those stats, because, a pickup is the sum of it's parts and no single stat will tell you exactly who it is and how it sounds. Ok, off my soap box. Trying to defend the name Clint (mine), by proving some of use can see a bigger picture and are less stubborn. I meant it in the nicest way possible and love you though Clint 55.
Joey Voltage
New member
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
If the original argument is that DCR alone is a reliable indication of output, than no. As pointed out numerous times, by many people including yourself, there are many factors that sum to produce an end result with DCR being possibly the weakest. The argument that DCR as a data point correlates to output as a general rule is DOA.
That said, it depends on what your point of reference is. In Clints defense, if his only basis of comparison was specifically the majority of Duncan's traditional humbucking line that fall in similar categories , I could see how you would very easily make that assumption. Duncan uses a very traditional design approach, consisting mostly of variations of three basic winds for a lot of their pickups, so it would seem that the DCR = output argument would be stronger when comparing some of Duncan's line that fall in the same category like say comparing a custom to a distortion for example, but that's about as far as you can really stretch it, and it certainly will not correspond to all pickups from all manufacturers.
However all of this falls flat with say a company like dimarzio, who exploit every angle of passive design to produce their end result. So much so, that the data looks completely random if you tried to sort it based on DCR to output, and is an exemplary testament of how weak the dcr to output correlation really is. Dcr as an inherent property is actually counterproductive to output.
If the original argument is that DCR alone is a reliable indication of output, than no. As pointed out numerous times, by many people including yourself, there are many factors that sum to produce an end result with DCR being possibly the weakest. The argument that DCR as a data point correlates to output as a general rule is DOA.
That said, it depends on what your point of reference is. In Clints defense, if his only basis of comparison was specifically the majority of Duncan's traditional humbucking line that fall in similar categories , I could see how you would very easily make that assumption. Duncan uses a very traditional design approach, consisting mostly of variations of three basic winds for a lot of their pickups, so it would seem that the DCR = output argument would be stronger when comparing some of Duncan's line that fall in the same category like say comparing a custom to a distortion for example, but that's about as far as you can really stretch it, and it certainly will not correspond to all pickups from all manufacturers.
However all of this falls flat with say a company like dimarzio, who exploit every angle of passive design to produce their end result. So much so, that the data looks completely random if you tried to sort it based on DCR to output, and is an exemplary testament of how weak the dcr to output correlation really is. Dcr as an inherent property is actually counterproductive to output.
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gregory
New member
Joey Voltage
New member
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
+2 for your signature! DCR is not a desired outcome more than it's the cost of doing business.
+2 for your signature! DCR is not a desired outcome more than it's the cost of doing business.
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
So while these guys are yapping....some sensible advice:
1. I have not done the C8, but I do love the Custom, and have experimented with the A8 mag. What it does, though, is pretty well known. I defer you threads on the C8
2. I'm saying a C8 will be a little less tight than a Custom. Ceramic is about as tight as it gets. A8 is going to soften that a touch. Emphasis on "a touch," I think you will still find it quite tight in the booty.
3. This ear fatigue thing is just pure nonsense. I say that because I have a Ph.D. and have had Grad level music/audiology/sensation and perception classes. They might be bored with the tone, or their chops my be tired, but no ear fatigue. That is a function of volume and time. And more likely lack of phrasing, chops, and style...
4. The JB is hot. I'd say the Custom is hotter, if only slightly. Insignificant differences. However - the EQ of those two is quite different. The JB has punch right where you'll hear it. One reason bedroom shredders fear it and band players love it. I'm guessing a slight just with a screw driver of less than half a turn will even them right up. Modern production (meaning after say 1970) is less than you can hear.
As of "k" - it is an ok estimate of relative output except for when it isn't. And that can be often. So don't hang on to that tightly at all.
So while these guys are yapping....some sensible advice:
1. I have not done the C8, but I do love the Custom, and have experimented with the A8 mag. What it does, though, is pretty well known. I defer you threads on the C8
2. I'm saying a C8 will be a little less tight than a Custom. Ceramic is about as tight as it gets. A8 is going to soften that a touch. Emphasis on "a touch," I think you will still find it quite tight in the booty.
3. This ear fatigue thing is just pure nonsense. I say that because I have a Ph.D. and have had Grad level music/audiology/sensation and perception classes. They might be bored with the tone, or their chops my be tired, but no ear fatigue. That is a function of volume and time. And more likely lack of phrasing, chops, and style...
4. The JB is hot. I'd say the Custom is hotter, if only slightly. Insignificant differences. However - the EQ of those two is quite different. The JB has punch right where you'll hear it. One reason bedroom shredders fear it and band players love it. I'm guessing a slight just with a screw driver of less than half a turn will even them right up. Modern production (meaning after say 1970) is less than you can hear.
As of "k" - it is an ok estimate of relative output except for when it isn't. And that can be often. So don't hang on to that tightly at all.
Zheddar
New member
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
Pshh, I am a living room shredder, and I love the JB. Right now I have been mag swapping and switching pickups in and out everyday (almost), because the only trem spaced Duncans I have for my new Schecter SVSS are a Pegasus and Custom. It came with an EMG OCR-1 set that has some of their new retro active preamps on them. I removed the preamps and they sound pretty close to a JB and 59. But it's not a Duncan and not a JB, and I have been sitting here squirming around with these pickups because I don't have a JB. I have a terrible JB addiction!!!
Pshh, I am a living room shredder, and I love the JB. Right now I have been mag swapping and switching pickups in and out everyday (almost), because the only trem spaced Duncans I have for my new Schecter SVSS are a Pegasus and Custom. It came with an EMG OCR-1 set that has some of their new retro active preamps on them. I removed the preamps and they sound pretty close to a JB and 59. But it's not a Duncan and not a JB, and I have been sitting here squirming around with these pickups because I don't have a JB. I have a terrible JB addiction!!!
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?
I put a Custom in my SGJ (mahogany body, maple neck, rosewood board) and it got me close to what I wanted. I thought the Custom was too scooped, and maybe sounded a bit bright and thin in my guitar. I then did the A8 mag swap and it soooooooooo damn good. It's almost as hot as the Custom was but it has just a gnarly, nasty sorta midrange that works incredibly well with the SG's natural tone. Super fat and smooth, warm, not AS tight as the Custom but still tight overall. I play a variety of metal, tuned two full steps down, into a 5150. The Custom 8 ended my pickup meddling, at least with this guitar.
I put a Custom in my SGJ (mahogany body, maple neck, rosewood board) and it got me close to what I wanted. I thought the Custom was too scooped, and maybe sounded a bit bright and thin in my guitar. I then did the A8 mag swap and it soooooooooo damn good. It's almost as hot as the Custom was but it has just a gnarly, nasty sorta midrange that works incredibly well with the SG's natural tone. Super fat and smooth, warm, not AS tight as the Custom but still tight overall. I play a variety of metal, tuned two full steps down, into a 5150. The Custom 8 ended my pickup meddling, at least with this guitar.
