Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

This? AGAIN??

Dimarzio Super Distiortion = 425 mv, DCR = 13.68 Kohms
Dimarzio Super 3: Output = 430 mv, DCR = 25 Kohms

Same magnets, different winds. Notice the incredibly small difference in measured voltage output (425 vs 430) and the MASSIVE difference in DCR (13.68 vs 25). And they are both ceramic magnet/hex pole pickups. DCR does NOT tell us how much output a pickup will have. Not even close.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Diminishing returns. The extra windings produce a lot more mids but the tonality gets a whole lot darker.

I haven't compared these two in person but I'm wondering whether the Super 3 drives a preamp a little harder; at least one that doesn't suck the mids right out just after the first stage of gain. I haven't seen any resonant peak information, though. The Super 3 would still need more bite in the upper mids/low treble than the Super D.
 
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

My experience with an A8 in the Custom was that it made things a bit rounder, bigger sounding and more sparkle on the high end. I found that it took away some of the cut and note definition, especially with staccato type runs. In the end, I found it too round sounding and a bit bloated and the note definition was a deal breaker for me. Honestly, I've tried most variations of the Custom and would now simply choose the stock Custom if I were to use that pick up.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

LtKojak said:
It's not even close to be "reasonable". But it's pretty darn close to be "misleading".

So, Clint, buddy; you like it or not, you're still wrong and that's what the nice people of the forum is trying to tell you, but seems to be falling on deaf ears.

HTH,
Click to expand...

Sorry Kojack, I'm not wrong. "K means nothing" and "It's not even close to being reasonable" are wrong. If k means nothing were true, one could look at the dcr to a 3k lipstick and a 21k parallel axis distortion and assume that either could be hotter. Are you seriously going to tell me that's possible?

Dcr is only misleading if one is stupid. I'm aware that 7 and 8k pickups frequently sound in loudness out of order than their Dcr. I'm not trying to split hairs about that. Or that the 59, although around 8k, is hot enough to get it into medium output territory. However, I can still ballpark all 8k Duncan pickups and know with certainty that they're not hot enough for my application in bridge position.

I'm also aware that some pickups read very high but aren't that hot, like the Dimarzios that you guys have been bringing up (I don't use Dimarzios). Or the Stag Mag. Since I'm not stupid, I would see the 16k Stag Mag with its designation as medium or low output and that would red flag it for me that something is up with that pickup to make Dcr irrelevant to THAT pickup.

Aside from all that, ALL the Duncan pickups that I use in my 6 guitars sound roughly in order of their dcr. I know with certainty that an 8k bridge pickup is not going to work for me. And I know that a 16k neck pickup is not going to work for me. I know I probably want the bridge pickup to be around 1.5 to 2 times higher in dcr than the neck pickup since I don't like putting the bridge pickup flush with the strings and the neck pickup flush with the pickguard.

Good day
 
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

The difference between 7k and 8k is the same as 14k (Custom) and 16k (JB) which is what got us here. ;)

Where I draw the line is when members start berating parallel vs split or series solely on the basis of DCR figures. We know that parallel has a similar output as split, despite having "half the DCR." There's actually one specific person I have in mind who, IMO, was far too influential here who was saying this frequently.

Regarding the Stag Mag, I brought it up as an example as to why it might not be such a great idea to compare the DCR of two singles in series (which is what a Stag Mag esentially is) against a standard humbucker.

I need to dig up a link to a discussion where someone put a k at the end of Gibson's output rating assuming it meant DCR. This is the kind of thing I'm fighting against, not a basic rule of thumb that works when those who use it are aware of the caveats.

You might not like the flat pick attack, but the Steve Morse signature neck pickup is a damn fine one and compliments his 10k bridge pickup extremely well. The DCR? 21k. I didn't include it because the magnet used is not the same.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Clint 55 said:
Sorry Kojack, I'm not wrong. "K means nothing" and "It's not even close to being reasonable" are wrong. If k means nothing were true, one could look at the dcr to a 3k lipstick and a 21k parallel axis distortion and assume that either could be hotter. Are you seriously going to tell me that's possible?

Dcr is only misleading if one is stupid. I'm aware that 7 and 8k pickups frequently sound in loudness out of order than their Dcr. I'm not trying to split hairs about that. Or that the 59, although around 8k, is hot enough to get it into medium output territory. However, I can still ballpark all 8k Duncan pickups and know with certainty that they're not hot enough for my application in bridge position.

I'm also aware that some pickups read very high but aren't that hot, like the Dimarzios that you guys have been bringing up (I don't use Dimarzios). Or the Stag Mag. Since I'm not stupid, I would see the 16k Stag Mag with its designation as medium or low output and that would red flag it for me that something is up with that pickup to make Dcr irrelevant to THAT pickup.

Aside from all that, ALL the Duncan pickups that I use in my 6 guitars sound roughly in order of their dcr. I know with certainty that an 8k bridge pickup is not going to work for me. And I know that a 16k neck pickup is not going to work for me. I know I probably want the bridge pickup to be around 1.5 to 2 times higher in dcr than the neck pickup since I don't like putting the bridge pickup flush with the strings and the neck pickup flush with the pickguard.

Good day
Click to expand...
Your issue, and what people are pointing out, is that you are taking an all things equal approach based on one parameter, which they seldom are. If every pickup on the planet were made using the same wire gauge, magnet, winding geometry, materials etc... then you might be able to deduce more from the dcr alone, but the obvious fact is they purposely aren't. There are several that need to be evaluated in order to have a clearer picture, or to make the argument, otherwise you are making assumptions that aren't necessarily true. DCR on its own is not a meaningful figure with out knowing details that accompany it. You can have a coil wound with 44awg with 5000 turns a dcr of 13-14k, but with a much lower self capacitance and inductance, and you can have a coil wound with 5000 turns of 43awg with a dcr of 10k-11k but with a much higher inductance and maybe more capacitance. using the same magnet, which one will be louder? And that's just with three parameters, now take into consideration the many that are actually at play. About the best you could estimate using dcr alone, is that the self resonance frequency of the coil may be damped somewhat, with the higher dcr actually working against output potential.
 
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

The problem is that you take the meagre experience you have to be definitive.
DCR and outout fails the correlation test quite handsomely, especially applying only the numbers as you do. They can be perfectly related, opposite, or unrelated.....a changing DCR can have zero influence or huge amount. Low K pickups can kick a high K pickup to the wall. It relies on knowing what the pickup is made from and how it is constructed - which are details you know nothing about given your surprise that the JB was wound with thinner wire than the custom.

Here is an extreme example of details being the king to DCR

Yngwie Malmsteen pickup 25K, output similar to a 6k strat pickup.
Charlie Christian pickup 3.5k, output similar to an 8k p90.

The construction, magnet and wire gauge differences are the key.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

I'm slowly learning that you can't take insulation type and thickness for granted either. :8:
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Nope.....its one of these things that winders get right into. Insulation type is a factor in the way the wire can get wound onto the bobbin for sure.
In fact as their suppliers get more amenable they are starting to try and spec wire like it was done in the 50's/60's.
You know you are dedicated to your craft when you start doing micrometer measurements at small intervals on vintage wire to find out the typical variation in wire and insulation thicknesses.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Sorry Alex you're incorrect. No correlation between DCR and output would mean that the Duncan pickups' output would fall at random when set in order of their DCR.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

I see a fairly consistent trend amongst full-sized Duncan* humbuckers when separated by the specific magnet though the Screamin Demon is the obvious monkey wrench.

However, I see no such thing with single-spaced, side-by-side HBs.

Then we have the Telecaster bridge options. If you take the magnet type into consideration, it gets even more perplexing.

(*) Let's face it, there really isn't a wide range of passive humbucker coil options except for the vintage output line. Beyond that there are like only 3 basic offerings @43AWG and about that @44AWG with a few minor tweaks here and there to enhance the magnet(s) used, Parallel Axis and other truly unique designs notwithstanding. Still, it's quite amazing how much ground is covered. In my mind there is no question that Duncan pickpus do what they were intended to do quite well and in some cases what they weren't intended to do.
 
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Clint 55 said:
Sorry Alex you're incorrect. No correlation between DCR and output would mean that the Duncan pickups' output would fall at random when set in order of their DCR.
Click to expand...

Nope......you don't understand the scope of what you are saying.....yet again it has to be said.

We are talking about pickups.....all of them......all manufacturers. Correlation means you can make an accurate prediction given a set of inputs as to the outputs.
There are too many variations fullstop and they don't vary consistently. We are not saying there is no correlation or that it is random, it is just too inconsistent to make predictions. A pickup is not a resistor, which is what you seem to think it is judging on your responses.

What syndrome are you suffering from btw.......the one that prevents you from acknowledging you are incorrect (despite overwhelming evidence) and compels you to dig yourself into a hole that you cannot escape from?? This is by no means the first time we have gone down this path, and it might give us a better understanding of you and help us deal with you in the future
 
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Correlation: STATISTICS
a quantity measuring the extent of interdependence of variable quantities.

Sorry Alex incorrect. Your personal opinion about the usefulness of dcr doesn't mean there's a random relationship between the 2 variables of dcr and output.
 
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Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Good winders can figure out a formula for a target output and tone, and then measure for specs afterwards. I know people call the Custom Shop and say "I want a 13k humbucker", but that doesn't take into account what they want it to sound like, and they are actually working backwards. Sure, more winds around a 'regular' pickup generally gives higher output and more mids. But there are so many other factors, that this is where the confusion starts. It doesn't end there.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Clint 55 said:
Correlation: STATISTICS
a quantity measuring the extent of interdependence of variable quantities.

Sorry Alex incorrect. Your personal opinion about the usefulness of dcr doesn't mean there's a random relationship between the 2 variables of dcr and output.
Click to expand...

Are you incapable of reading....or you simply ignore the bits and the facts you don't want to accept.

Go and read my post again.
Then go and look at the facts.

This is the vol pot and resonant frequency all over again.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

I'm using as an example for the (weak) relationship between dcr and output of say all Duncan pickups, not one in particular. I'm not disputing the other (more) important factors you and others have addressed that determine output. I'm just saying that it's possible to ballpark (not predict 100% accurately) the output of a pickup from it's dcr. As long as you have reason to believe there's not something unique to it like in the case of noiseless pickups etc. that will throw it off.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Well, finally now we go from 'dcr is directly related to output' to 'once you take out all the factors that cause it not to be related, its related'
Quite the shift.

So, construction, Or the wire type, or the magnet all play a part - in short every aspect that contributes directly to the sound.
 
Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Clint 55 said:
Thanks, I know.

Dcr and output are still correlated. I don't care to what degree you determine they are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_dependence
Click to expand...

Obviously you don't. That article spells out the exact thing you are not getting, there is no linear relationship between dcr and output, there's only a linear relationship if you are making assumptions about the other variables which you can't. Here's a few more for you:

Dimarzio virtual solo dcr 11.17k output 205mv
Dimarzio HS3 dcr 23.72k output 93mv

Both are of similar construction, and by your assumption the hs3 would be louder, but the measurements state differently, and owning both I can assure you the hs3 is certainly not louder.

About the only thing you can reasonably assume by dcr alone is that a thinner gauge of wire was used for one when comparing two pickups of like construction, but that's it.
 
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