Digital Modelers

[ErikH]

The only place I like to use a modeler where I have to tweak and save, and tweak some more, is at home when I'm practicing. I use headphones majority of the time so digital modeling is perfect for that situation. When I'm playing with the band, I want it as simple as possible. There are so many options out there, and not just in digital modeling but with analog stuff as well, that something is bound to work for darn near everybody. I love the Fly Rig stuff. I'm using it in my every day rig with a few pedals, even though the purpose is to use with existing back line and the quick fly gig and all. I have the DI solution and can run it to an amp on the stage if I need my own monitor. And no programming. It's not like I need a tons of different tones. I make it work with what I have.

 

[ErikH]

I’ve been contemplating selling my ‘86 JCM 800 2204 too.
Truth is, I don’t use it. My Splawn does the Marshall thing better than the Marshall. And I suspect that the Kemper does as well.

The cool thing about the Kemper is you can create a profile of YOUR 2204 in it, and the Splawn too. You can keep the amps to at least do that. That's appealing to me but I don't have the cash for Kemper and it's more than I'd use anyway, but the features are really cool.

 

[Top-L]

I tested a Line 6 Helix, and the 5150 simulation sounded NOTHING like my actual 5150. Not even close.
I messed around with setting for 2 days . . . no go.

OK, the Line 6 Helix is not in the same price as a Kemper, but still, at $1700.00 you would expect much better.

So much of it is marketing. That is why I respect the companies that provide their own amp simulations "in the style of" without naming after a specific amp.

When this has come up before, usually the guy who works at the company says "it sounds just like OUR ____".

If the amp models are virtually identical, then there should be an endless series of manufacturer videos where they A/B between the amp and their model direct to the loop, to show prospective customers that they are indeed identical.

 

[Mincer]

With modeling, there will *always* be something new out. Buy what you need today, just like if you were buying a laptop. You might use a laptop for 15 years, but chances are you will get 5 out of it and get frustrated enough to buy another.

 

[Bogner]

Interesting. The only thing swaying me away from a smaller unit is if it were too feature lite. The Stage is essentially the same as the toaster, just in a different footprint.
I see some used on reverb and that would save a couple hundred dollars, but I feel like that’s probably not significant enough to forego the factory warranty etc.

I’ve been contemplating selling my ‘86 JCM 800 2204 too.
Truth is, I don’t use it. My Splawn does the Marshall thing better than the Marshall. And I suspect that the Kemper does as well.

If your Marshall is in good shape, I would keep it but that is me. I rarely sell anything. Call me crazy but I am personally hesitant to buy used pedals and used modeling gear. I would personally go new if I was going to go that route. There are deals to be had so discounts are available on new Kemper stuff for sure. Additionally, if your Marshall is an oversized paperweight, I understand moving it to get something you would use.

 

[Bogner]

The cool thing about the Kemper is you can create a profile of YOUR 2204 in it, and the Splawn too. You can keep the amps to at least do that. That's appealing to me but I don't have the cash for Kemper and it's more than I'd use anyway, but the features are really cool.

While this is true it is also a bit misleading. Whatever he profiles from his amp into the Kemper is the only part of his amp he will get. He will NOT get the full dynamics of everything his amp has in that one capture.

 

[Gtrjunior]

The cool thing about the Kemper is you can create a profile of YOUR 2204 in it, and the Splawn too. You can keep the amps to at least do that. That's appealing to me but I don't have the cash for Kemper and it's more than I'd use anyway, but the features are really cool.

I thought I’d that too.
I definitely don’t want to sell the Splawn. I love it.
But the Marshall hasn’t seen much live in quite some time now.
And if I sold it, it would take a big bite out of the Kemper price.

 

[Ewizard]

Digital anything is a bad investment ( well except Bitcoin if you were early to that game ). But in terms of digital hardware, it's a bad investment. No user-serviceable parts in there. If you have an amp you love, it will last your lifetime if you take care of it. It should always be user-serviceable too. Plus it's not a copy of something, it is what was copied.

If you sell the amp to buy the Kemper, you will be making a parallel move. The amp will be gone, can't make a profile of an amp you don't have. You can acquire other people's profiles I suppose, but it won't be yours. And in 5-10 years when the thing is either not supported or broken, you have NOTHING. No hardware fallback device. You actually have E-Waste, it's worth so little they won't even pay you to take the gold off the traces. An amplifier that works will always be worth at least $350.

Digital products are solutions to problems, not the answer to all solutions. They can do some things very well, but not all things really well. When they break, they are done, you don't fix them. As much as I like Fractal Audio, I hate them. Their product is needlessly expensive because they made it do more than any one person needs it to do. They didn't make a simple device for less that just did a few things EXTREMELY well, they made a complicated one that did everything really well. So the end-user ends up paying a lot of money for features they will never fully utilize. And it will still become useless in 5-10 years.

I feel bad for my neighbor. He bought an Axe FXii when it was about the mid-life cycle ( 1.5-2 years after release ). He was happy with it. And he clamored over the one major firmware release it got. He liked it so much he spent another wad on an Atomic CLR monitor. All in, he is easily $3,500 deep. Then they released the AxeFX iii. You can't even buy an AxeFXii anymore. Luckily it will run the latest firmware. But be aware that the AxeFXiii Mark ii is now out. It's only been a couple of years and the AxeFX iii is already starting to phase out for new models. Fractal Audio has become the iPhone of the guitarist world. Always a new model, always top dollar, and always dead before you totally use it up.

 

[Top-L]

With modeling, there will *always* be something new out. Buy what you need today, just like if you were buying a laptop. You might use a laptop for 15 years, but chances are you will get 5 out of it and get frustrated enough to buy another.

That is why I see touch interface as the "final frontier". It solves the on-device naming and organization problem.

If you buy an FM3 without touch, then a couple years from now, Cliff introduces the FM-touch, everyone will be ready to say "wow, this is so much easier to use" and will upgrade.

The amp modeling is already "there". You could use an FM3 for another two decades and make great music with it.

 

[Gtrjunior]

If your Marshall is in good shape, I would keep it but that is me. I rarely sell anything. Call me crazy but I am personally hesitant to buy used pedals and used modeling gear. I would personally go new if I was going to go that route. There are deals to be had so discounts are available on new Kemper stuff for sure. Additionally, if your Marshall is an oversized paperweight, I understand moving it to get something you would use.

Countless times over the years I’ve said that would never sell the Marshall.
It has had a lot of mods done to it.
It has 2 extra gain stages, a zero loss FX loop, a PPIMV and a footswitchable clean channel added.
I suppose depending on who you ask that either makes it more valuable or completely ruin the value....idk.
Believe me, I don’t really want to sell it and I don’t absolutely NEED to buy a Kemper, but you know....GAS.
I have 4 tube amps but the other 2 (besides the Splawn and the Marshall) aren’t really worth all that much.
Here in New England the bars are starting to open back up and we just booked the remainder of the year at out favorite spot, so of course I’m now thinking “I NEED THAT KEMPER!!!” Lol

 

[ErikH]

While this is true it is also a bit misleading. Whatever he profiles from his amp into the Kemper is the only part of his amp he will get. He will NOT get the full dynamics of everything his amp has in that one capture.

Correct, but you can also create multiple profiles with different settings from said amp. BUT, it's a JCM 800 2204. The profile to make is with it WIDE OPEN! That is the charm of doing that.

 

[ErikH]

Here in New England the bars are starting to open back up and we just booked the remainder of the year at out favorite spot, so of course I’m now thinking “I NEED THAT KEMPER!!!” Lol

Be careful going that route with something new out the gate with shows. You'll end up frustrated and not enjoying the gigs, or you'll end up tweaking things between sets and whatnot rather than socializing. Seen it happen with a bandmate. He eventually stuck with one or two patches at my advice for the rest of the night and tweaked the snot out of it at home before the next gig. He likes to have tones set up for the song. Me, I'm good with a clean/clean-ish, mid drive, and over the top lead gain. I'll use picking dynamics and the volume control on the guitar to get what I need. Has worked for me for years. Not gonna change now. But if you do go down that path, tweak and tweak and test it at rehearsal before taking it to a gig.

 

[Bogner]

Correct, but you can also create multiple profiles with different settings from said amp. BUT, it's a JCM 800 2204. The profile to make is with it WIDE OPEN! That is the charm of doing that.

Agree but a lot of people have made the assumption (MISTAKE) of thinking they can profile their amp and the Kemper stores their entire amp so why not go that route and Profile your amps and anybody else's amps you can find and before long you have 500 full amps in a little magic box. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way...but I sure wish it did...lol.

 

[ErikH]

Agree but a lot of people have made the assumption (MISTAKE) of thinking they can profile their amp and the Kemper stores their entire amp so why not go that route and Profile your amps and anybody else's amps you can find and before long you have 500 full amps in a little magic box. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way...but I sure wish it did...lol.

Somehow, I have the vision of Ghostbusters in my head with the little containment box being a Kemper and the ghosts being different amps....LOL. If only it were that simple.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Be careful going that route with something new out the gate with shows. You'll end up frustrated and not enjoying the gigs, or you'll end up tweaking things between sets and whatnot rather than socializing. Seen it happen with a bandmate. He eventually stuck with one or two patches at my advice for the rest of the night and tweaked the snot out of it at home before the next gig. He likes to have tones set up for the song. Me, I'm good with a clean/clean-ish, mid drive, and over the top lead gain. I'll use picking dynamics and the volume control on the guitar to get what I need. Has worked for me for years. Not gonna change now. But if you do go down that path, tweak and tweak and test it at rehearsal before taking it to a gig.

Yes, good advise. That happened to me several years ago when I bought a JVM. I took it to a gig without even having the chance to dial in tones at home. It took 2 sets to get something workable but I was never happy with it that gig.

I can mostly get through a gig with the same setup as you. Clean, kinda dirty, full on dirty rhythm, and a lead tone.
I do like to play with fx though. But like you said, I really would need to do all of that at home and tweak during rehearsal.

Even with the AA12, I dialed in tones at home but then at rehearsal I needed to tweak so they worked better in a band setting.

 

[Bogner]

Countless times over the years I’ve said that would never sell the Marshall.
It has had a lot of mods done to it.
It has 2 extra gain stages, a zero loss FX loop, a PPIMV and a footswitchable clean channel added.
I suppose depending on who you ask that either makes it more valuable or completely ruin the value....idk.
Believe me, I don’t really want to sell it and I don’t absolutely NEED to buy a Kemper, but you know....GAS.
I have 4 tube amps but the other 2 (besides the Splawn and the Marshall) aren’t really worth all that much.
Here in New England the bars are starting to open back up and we just booked the remainder of the year at out favorite spot, so of course I’m now thinking “I NEED THAT KEMPER!!!” Lol

Guitar Center is your friend...

 

[ErikH]

Yes, good advise. That happened to me several years ago when I bought a JVM. I took it to a gig without even having the chance to dial in tones at home. It took 2 sets to get something workable but I was never happy with it that gig.

I can mostly get through a gig with the same setup as you. Clean, kinda dirty, full on dirty rhythm, and a lead tone.
I do like to play with fx though. But like you said, I really would need to do all of that at home and tweak during rehearsal.

Even with the AA12, I dialed in tones at home but then at rehearsal I needed to tweak so they worked better in a band setting.

Yup. I did the same with the Fly Rig. Even though it's very simple to dial in, though I thought I had the reverb and delay set well at home, I needed to increase them a bit at rehearsal and tweak the EQ just a tad.

 

[Mincer]

That is why I see touch interface as the "final frontier". It solves the on-device naming and organization problem.

If you buy an FM3 without touch, then a couple years from now, Cliff introduces the FM-touch, everyone will be ready to say "wow, this is so much easier to use" and will upgrade.

The amp modeling is already "there". You could use an FM3 for another two decades and make great music with it.

I don't think that example sounds like the typical Fractal user. Reading on their forum, the interface is applauded. No one goes on about the lack of a touch screen. As someone who uses mine live (and used my AX8 live for 6 years), I never once thought the user interface was hard to navigate or impossible to use live. You might, but it isn't something I am ever seeing on the Fractal forums.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Guitar Center is your friend...

Hmmmm.....

 

[Top-L]

I don't think that example sounds like the typical Fractal user. Reading on their forum, the interface is applauded. No one goes on about the lack of a touch screen. As someone who uses mine live (and used my AX8 live for 6 years), I never once thought the user interface was hard to navigate or impossible to use live. You might, but it isn't something I am ever seeing on the Fractal forums.

You will notice I said AFTER Cliff adds touch, THEN everyone will be ready to say "this is so much easier". Right now, everyone is pleased as punch, UNTIL he adds a new killer feature, then everyone will want it.

I didn't think I wanted/needed a touch interface until I tried the G11. But for my use cases, which is playing without a computer, it solves a number of problems (which is organizing patches).

Maybe the solution going forward will be bluetooth integration and phone app. Currently Boss has that and Zoom has that (havent tried it). Not aware of anyone else that does that. Maybe hotone?

How important is that on the GT1000? Fractal users say "meh", until Cliff ads it and then it will be the coolest thing ever. I think that is part of the problem with the Fractal ecosystem. People are so invested in it, that they can't see the merit of other ways.