Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

[zionstrat]

Installed Skinner bursts for a client today (who already owned them) and my initial reaction was disappointment and I'm wondering if I'm missing something- We swapped skinnerbursts for a Burstbucker 3 (bridge) and Burstbucker 2 (neck) on a Bonamassa LP studio.

Pre-swap, we demoed the burstbuckers through a twin that tends to be a good 'standard candle'. The bridge was clear and bright and the neck was deep and dark (right on the edge of being too bassy) but it worked rather well in this guitar. I have never been a burstbucker fanatic (I prefer Seth Lovers for most builds), however, in this build the sound was very good.

So we changed over to the skinnerbursts and found the sound considerable thinner/weaker- as if we had rolled the bass off-
The bridge was bright and rather thin, combined they were somewhat thicker, but the neck alone was only slight darker than the combined and rather thin... again it was as if Skinnerbusts have significant less bass than the Burstbuckers-

This surprised me- I think of Bonamassa as relatively thick blues and imagined the Skinnerbursts would be thicker than the Burstbuckers. Unfortunately, we didn't have a higher gain amp available today, and on the drive home I got to thinking- does Bonamassa's tone drive hard enough that the Skinnerbursts were designed with less bass to reduce mudd/feedback?

We played with the setup a bit- The burstbusters we replaced were just proud of the ring and we installed the Skinners at the same height. Considering my initial reaction, I raised the bridge 1/16 to see if we could get more power and did the same with the neck on the treble side and increased the bass side another 32nd in hopes of a little more thickness - but the sound was essentially the same.

I have never thought of Bonamassa's tone as saturated enough to need bass roll off, but I might get a chance to revisit the guitar with a crunchable amp before the client picks it up- I really am curious if these pups are just less clean friendly than I imagined, but maybe will shine with some drive?

Interested in your thoughts- Again, this was the client's choice (and it's certainly possible that the client was looking for this tone- everyone hears differently), but I would love to hear your thoughts about Skinner's purpose and design.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

What many don't realise is that true PAF's (and of course clones) are bright. With the clones I've had they are also picky about the guitar they go into.
In fact that is perhaps one of the main reasons why Duncan doesn't do the pure PAF clone, and makes most of their low output pickups thicker and less peaky in tone.

A3 pickups do need a LOT more height adjustment work on the for getting the sweet spot, plus the magnetic field is weaker so they can be adjusted way closer. In fact I'd halve the distance to the strings compared with the BB's as my start point then maybe work from there.

Lastly, if you have been used to the BB tone, which is not really PAF accurate in any way, then these might need some adjustments on the amp to compensate.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

An Alnico3 humbucker will have lower output and noticeably less bass than a comparable wind with A2. In addition, the Burstbucker 2 & 3 that you took out are a hair hotter and have a bit more body than a BB 1 & 2 set.

Old PAFs are all over the map tonewise, of course. But my experience seems to be consistent with AlexR's: the real ones were crisper and drier in person than I'd expected, also maybe a bit lighter in the lows than most of the modern PAF types I've played. (I admit, though, my hands-on experience with vintage ones has been limited to just a handful.)

It's possible, too, that the originals the Skinnerbursts were tailored to match could've been more towards the thin sounding end of the spectrum even for old PAFs.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

With only 1 guitar as the target host, your chances of a perfect match are quite low too. I have many gibson LP clones I've made.....and I've had to swap my various PAF clone pickups between them many times to find the guitar they most suited. In some cases they were god-awful in one guitar - but the best match for another.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

With only 1 guitar as the target host, your chances of a perfect match are quite low too. I have many gibson LP clones I've made.....and I've had to swap my various PAF clone pickups between them many times to find the guitar they most suited. In some cases they were god-awful in one guitar - but the best match for another.

Good input across the board. And I totally agree... Different guitars sound different with the same pups.

We'll play with height, but good to hear that these are thinner pups.

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[jeremy]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

the bb3 is pretty hot and thick in the bridge and same for the bb2 in the neck. the bb2/bb1 combo is much more paf like to my ears. the a3 magnets in the skinners are light on bottom end and output as others have mentioned. joes rig these days is old tweed amps cranked up. old tweed bassmans and twins have a ton of bottom end that can get mushy so it makes sense that he would like a set of pups that are very musical but might sound thin through a different setup. i used to run a tweed bassman and typically only used my esquire or strat bridge pup since there was soo much bottom. with the right guitar it sounded amazing though

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

I think of Bonamassa as relatively thick blues and imagined the Skinnerbursts would be thicker than the Burstbuckers

Your expectatives of the Skinners are the complete opposite as how they were intended/designed to sound.

They were designed to closely reproduce the tone of the p'ups found on JB's "Skinner" '59 LP. REAL Vintage tone at its core. Bright and snappy.

In a nutshell, they sound as they're supposed to.

HTH,

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

joes rig these days is old tweed amps cranked up. old tweed bassmans and twins have a ton of bottom end that can get mushy so it makes sense that he would like a set of pups that are very musical but might sound thin through a different setup.

That fits well and explains a lot. Good news is the client is a Bonamassa guy and should appreciate this sound.

Thanks again for great info and fast response.

And once again, I love this forum!
ZStrat/Mickey

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

It's already been said but yes I can add that back when I was there, and Duncan was working with him on the first set of pickups, he said that generally he's a bright pickup > darker amp type of guy, not the other way around.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

It's already been said but yes I can add that back when I was there, and Duncan was working with him on the first set of pickups, he said that generally he's a bright pickup > darker amp type of guy, not the other way around.

Makes total sense and fits our experience exactly- Everything is impacted by the rig and from what we've discussed, it sounds like the SB is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Sidebar- Maybe I should re-title the thread 'Installed SBs and they are doing exactly what they are made to do' as this might be more accurate for future searches- Does anyone know if you can rename threads?

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

Your expectatives of the Skinners are the complete opposite as how they were intended/designed to sound.

They were designed to closely reproduce the tone of the p'ups found on JB's "Skinner" '59 LP. REAL Vintage tone at its core. Bright and snappy.

In a nutshell, they sound as they're supposed to.

HTH,

Thanks Kojack- In retrospect, I knew that burstbusters aren't classic PAF so I definitely 'missed the boat' and appreciate you guys helping me rapidly feel better for the client's sake-

Cheers,
ZS

 

[Mincer]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

The ones I've tried were bright, too, and that is how I expected them to be. My limited experience with actual '59 pickups out of a vintage Gibson were the same. They are brighter than I thought. I would assume those buying the Skinnerburst pickups would want that type of 'authentic' sound.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

The ones I've tried were bright, too, and that is how I expected them to be.

Thanks Mincer-

In retrospect everything makes sense and I imagine they will work well with a darker amp.

 

[Starman]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

I find my Skinnerburst set neck to be beautiful with rich overtones and amazing clarity yet with lots of punch on tap. It is wonderful and reminds me a lot of my Slash APH-2 neck, just slightly more dry of a tone. The bridge is just anemic. It's as if the set were completely mismatched, as my bridge is just weak sounding without any real character and if the vol knob isn't set at 10 forget it. It didn't even sound nice mixed with the neck. I played with heights of poles and pickups and even a pot change. I then swapped it into another LP that had a CS Pearly set and that was even more abysmal. I contacted SD and they are sending me a call tag to ship back the bridge to MJ..... but I wonder if this is just the nature of this set?

In the meantime I wired in a Shop Floor Custom SH-5 Custom in place of the "Skinnybridge" and it plays extremely well with the Skinnerburst neck. In fact the volume level jump is not heavily apparent from the Custom to the Skinner. It's almost as if the Skinnerburst bridge needs the volume level of a 59 or Pearly to match (my) Skinnnerburst neck.

I have no idea what MJ's crew will come up with for me? Maybe a hotter rewind or a different magnet? I'm at a loss on this one.

I like thick tone, with a noticeable thump. I have a lot of SD pickups in my many LP's, all deliver juicy tones some sizzle some scream some seduce but none are just plain weak, except this (particular?) Skinnerburst bridge.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

I find my Skinnerburst set neck to be beautiful with rich overtones and amazing clarity yet with lots of punch on tap. It is wonderful and reminds me a lot of my Slash APH-2 neck, just slightly more dry of a tone. The bridge is just anemic. It's as if the set were completely mismatched, as my bridge is just weak sounding without any real character and if the vol knob isn't set at 10 forget it. It didn't even sound nice mixed with the neck. I played with heights of poles and pickups and even a pot change. I then swapped it into another LP that had a CS Pearly set and that was even more abysmal. I contacted SD and they are sending me a call tag to ship back the bridge to MJ..... but I wonder if this is just the nature of this set?

In the meantime I wired in a Shop Floor Custom SH-5 Custom in place of the "Skinnybridge" and it plays extremely well with the Skinnerburst neck. In fact the volume level jump is not heavily apparent from the Custom to the Skinner. It's almost as if the Skinnerburst bridge needs the volume level of a 59 or Pearly to match (my) Skinnnerburst neck.

I have no idea what MJ's crew will come up with for me? Maybe a hotter rewind or a different magnet? I'm at a loss on this one.

I like thick tone, with a noticeable thump. I have a lot of SD pickups in my many LP's, all deliver juicy tones some sizzle some scream some seduce but none are just plain weak, except this (particular?) Skinnerburst bridge.

Interesting Starman. Your neck sounds like the timbre I expected across the board. I can't imagine how you encountered only half of our experience.

The set we installed was definitely matched with a bright timbre and little body.

Per the rest of this thread, my expectations were off, so no complaints but thanks for sharing and interested in hearing how things resolve.

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[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

I have no idea what MJ's crew will come up with for me? Maybe a hotter rewind or a different magnet? I'm at a loss on this one.

This was my experience with both sets of JB pickups. The first run was my favorite, but in the end, I wasn't too happy with the A3 in the bridge. The Magellan bridge would benefit from an A4, but you'd take a hit on the value of the set. Both neck positions were spot on. I decided to move them instead of doing a mag swap.


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[Mincer]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

I find my Skinnerburst set neck to be beautiful with rich overtones and amazing clarity yet with lots of punch on tap. It is wonderful and reminds me a lot of my Slash APH-2 neck, just slightly more dry of a tone. The bridge is just anemic. It's as if the set were completely mismatched, as my bridge is just weak sounding without any real character and if the vol knob isn't set at 10 forget it. It didn't even sound nice mixed with the neck. I played with heights of poles and pickups and even a pot change. I then swapped it into another LP that had a CS Pearly set and that was even more abysmal. I contacted SD and they are sending me a call tag to ship back the bridge to MJ..... but I wonder if this is just the nature of this set?

In the meantime I wired in a Shop Floor Custom SH-5 Custom in place of the "Skinnybridge" and it plays extremely well with the Skinnerburst neck. In fact the volume level jump is not heavily apparent from the Custom to the Skinner. It's almost as if the Skinnerburst bridge needs the volume level of a 59 or Pearly to match (my) Skinnnerburst neck.

I have no idea what MJ's crew will come up with for me? Maybe a hotter rewind or a different magnet? I'm at a loss on this one.

I like thick tone, with a noticeable thump. I have a lot of SD pickups in my many LP's, all deliver juicy tones some sizzle some scream some seduce but none are just plain weak, except this (particular?) Skinnerburst bridge.

I think if you tell MJ exactly what you are hearing, and what you were looking for (or expected), she can make it happen for you. I have only heard clips of these sets, as I haven't tried them myself. My guess is that they were installed exclusively in LPs, which I don't own. Let us know how this turns out, though.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

Starman, somewhat off topic and I'm sure you have thought of this, but isn't this an expensive pup and mods could devalue?

Could it make more sense to sell set, and get mj to wind exactly what you need?


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[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

I contacted the custom shop about winding me a custom first set of JBs (hotter bridge and full strength mags) and was told no. They want to keep these as limited. I didn't speak to MJ, so it's still a possibility. This is just what I encountered earlier in the year.


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[AlexR]

Re: Disappointed with Skinner Bursts- Maybe the amp? Guru thoughts?

Its funny looking at the specs (which don't really mean much in isolation of course). But I have a set of Sigil Bluesman roots wound with NOS 1957 wire with the same K readings and the same magnet. But unlike the JB's they are well balanced and full in both positions. Of course out of the 2 the neck will always be the easier to find the sweetspot, but the bridge is a LOT closer to the strings than my other PAF clone pickups. But it does a good impression of that Supernatural tone