Duncan distortion neck magnet swap in bridge position

[frankfalbo]

Maybe I can help. Let’s break it down into 2 different elements, the coils, and the overall tone of the pickup.

But before I begin, Clint, I see you making an argument from the perspective that Seymour designed the Distortion Neck as the calibrated neck version of the Distortion Bridge. This is not the origin story of the SH-6n. The pickup is the Seymourizer, originally something that could be used in the neck with a hot bridge pickup, like the DD, or used in the bridge. Only later did it get coopted as the Distortion Neck, and the Seymourizer name was retired.

For those of us who know this pickup to have been designed as a standalone, this is probably why we’re confused that you’re resisting the urge to consider it a coil wind that’s between a Custom and a Demon with 43AWG poly wire, and a DCR between the two.

Now back to the point. If we’re talking about the overall tone of a pickup, then yes, changing to a different wire gauge for the neck pickup, you can calibrate and voice a pickup to have similar complimentary characteristics to the bridge, and call them by the same name. The Full Shred and Invader sets are certainly like that.

But the folks in this thread are talking about just the coils, and using them as the platform for a magnet swap to create a different kind of bridge or neck pickup. For these people, it is more appropriate to think of the DDn coil like a Custom with less wire on it, or a Demon with more wire on it. But not like a Distortion with less wire on it, because that’s not what it is. Does that help?

 

[frankfalbo]

Also I believe the difference with the Seymourizer II was just the addition of the 4-conductor. Dimarzio sold their 4-conductor Super Distortion at the time (and many years after) as the “Dual Sound”. Same idea.

 

[Clint 55]

Yes, that helps. However since I've mag swapped both the DDn and Custom and don't view them to be alike at all tonally, I don't see the point in trying to make an objective statement that the DDn is a Custom wound to 13k instead of 14.2 because that's obviously false. You don't get broad eq differences between pickups if their wind formulas are identical. The DDn wind has a giant fizzy mid spike like its big brother bridge while the Custom wind has no mids at all.

 

[frankfalbo]

And without getting into too much detail, it’s really not false. A lot happens to the resonant peak characteristics of a pair of HB coils when you start adding wire. Like even a 59 Bridge sounds super different to me in the neck vs the neck model. And a 59 neck sounds thin and weak in the bridge. And those are within a few percentage points of one another.

 

[Clint 55]

Right, but all things equal, don't you usually gain thicker mids as you add wire? The DDn has less wire but more mids.

 

[frankfalbo]

When you add turns, the resonant peak goes lower. So the “spike” frequency gets lower and all of the treble content above that point is more severely attenuated. When this happens, since the relationship *between* the treble, high mids, and mids is shifting, everything changes, and the distortion characteristics make it more pronounced.

Like when I’m voicing pickups for Fluence, I might have an artist say they need a little bit more attack in the upper mids, but ultimately what that might mean is that I am contouring a little bit way down in the high bass area so that those upper mids are free to be dominant. So it’s not always so cut and dry where the changes are coming from that impact what we hear and feel.

 

[jeremy]

Was 'The Mag' a Stag Mag or a Stag Mag without the staggered magnets?

flat and with a5 rods

 

[Masta' C]

Hey Frank...side note: Were you involved in the voicing of Wolf Hoffman's Fluence pickups?

 

[Clint 55]

I see. Well if things are unpredictable, what's the point in trying to make an objective statement that the DDn is an underwound Custom if they sound differently, and Duncan advertises the DDn as being designed specifically for the bridge model?

 

[JamesPaul]

Was 'The Mag' a Stag Mag or a Stag Mag without the staggered magnets?

A Stag Mag without the staggered magnets.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/271949-seymour-duncan-the-mag-humbucker

 

[alex1fly]

When you add turns, the resonant peak goes lower. So the “spike” frequency gets lower and all of the treble content above that point is more severely attenuated. When this happens, since the relationship *between* the treble, high mids, and mids is shifting, everything changes, and the distortion characteristics make it more pronounced.

Like when I’m voicing pickups for Fluence, I might have an artist say they need a little bit more attack in the upper mids, but ultimately what that might mean is that I am contouring a little bit way down in the high bass area so that those upper mids are free to be dominant. So it’s not always so cut and dry where the changes are coming from that impact what we hear and feel.

Frank - thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on this post! I always appreciate hearing from folks in the industry.

 

[Aceman]

Clint, send Frank an Apple. You got schooled.

 

[Clint 55]

I don't think so.

 

[Mincer]

A Stag Mag without the staggered magnets.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/271949-seymour-duncan-the-mag-humbucker

Hmm, I wonder why that model didn't survive, but the staggered version did.

 

[JamesPaul]

I was curious about that also.

It's only my suspicion, but in that topic, Jack_TriPpEr notes that the Stag Mag pole pieces are adjustable. Maybe the pole pieces can be adjusted all the way down to flat?

If not, my other thought was the split Mag didn't evoke the Stratocaster tone as much as the split Stag Mag for the majority of players. So the Stag Mag won out. I'm confident the Custom Shop could always make The Mag if needed.

 

[JamesPaul]

I keep getting 403 errors trying to edit my previous post.

​​​​​​I just checked the Shop Floor Custom page and Magnet Stagger, flat/staggered/lefty, options are available on Strat and Tele pups as SFC's. If they would also apply that to the Stag Mag, one wouldn't even have to go full Custom Shop.

 

[frankfalbo]

I see. Well if things are unpredictable, what's the point in trying to make an objective statement that the DDn is an underwound Custom if they sound differently, and Duncan advertises the DDn as being designed specifically for the bridge model?

How it’s advertised doesn’t tell the origin story. It’s the Seymourizer II, (because they come stock with 4-conductor) and some of the people here are coming to this discussion with that historical perspective.

As for how it’s referred to, the Demon is a very different pickup than the Custom 5, even if both had screws & slug construction. So no one is saying the Demon is just an underwound C5. But hypothetically, let’s say a Demon coil has X winds, let’s say a Custom coil has X plus a couple thousand more turns. And now let’s say the Seymourizer has X plus a thousand more turns. Of course these are just made up numbers but my point is, without disclosing any secrets these guys in this thread aren’t out of line when they say if you peeled some turns off a Custom coil you’d arrive at a DDn coil, and if you kept going you’d arrive at a Demon coil.

 

[Aceman]

I don't think so.

Denial <= You are here
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance <= This is where you learn something and can respond in an appropriate and meaningful way to the information you have just acquired

And Frank would prefer a gift card to Arby's so he could grab a Jamocha shake.

 

[Clint 55]

What information? You guys are going with full disregard for any info at all.

- So the DDn was originally the Seymourizer?
Yeah, but it uses 43 so it's really an underwound Custom.
- Oh, but it sounds more like the DD bridge.
Doesn't matter, it uses 43 so it's an underwound Custom.
- Oh, isn't it the case if there are huge differences in eq it means it's a different model/wind?
No, cuz it uses 43 so it's an identical wind. See when you overwind something the resonant peak shifts down and you get more mids.
- Oh, I see so more wire equals more mids, is that why the DDn which is wound lighter has a huge mid spike while the Custom wind has none?
Yep, wound with 43.
- But surely there must be other factors in the wind besides the wire gauge, are the Black Winter neck, and Jason Becker really underwound Customs as well?
The DDn has 43 so it's a Custom.
- Oh, other pickup makers use 43 to make humbuckers, are they really the Custom wind as well?
DDn uses 43 so it's a Custom.
- So the DDn was originally its own design and at present, the builder himself describes the DDn as being specifically designed for the bridge. Doesn't that mean anything?
Nope, what Duncan says doesn't matter. DDn has 43 so it's by definition a Custom.
- I see. Thanks for that great info there!

 

[Demanic]

Tell us how you really feel.

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