Easy pickup changing solution

[blueman335]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

- Blueman, a connector system does not need to be substantially bigger than the current wire. This is merely a strawman. You can make a system that fits in narrow channels. I did with a random idea and a few minutes walking around an electronics store. The R &D? $10 to buy supplies. I use a connector system, and the truth is, the opposition to a quick connect is really presenting nothing that presents a substantive issue, except tradition.

Not a strawman. As I said, I have guitars where I couldn't even get a 4-lead wires thru the wire channel in the guitar body. Connectors of any kind would be impossible to get thru there. Guitar makers aren't building their produts with the thought that their customers will be stuffing all kinds of things thru those channels. They build according to their needs, not what aftermarket products might be used.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

A channel that can't pass a 4-conductor cable is a basic design flaw.

Agreed that's it's not an ideal design, but they're out there. Who's going to pass up a guitar they like, because it has a narrow PU wire channel? Who's even going to pull off a plate/pickguard and check that before they buy it? Manufacturers aren't designing guitars for aftermarket add-ons. If a narrow channel suits their needs, why drill out more wood if they don't have to?

You guys that want quick connectors: don't waste your time arguing with us, the ones who have no problem soldering. You're not going to convert us. It's a non-issue in our eyes. Put your energy and passion into convicing PU and guitar makers into adopting a universal system. Start a grass roots movement with email campaigns and petitions. If you really believe all the emotional testimony presented on this thread, do something about it. If all you do is argue with fellow guitar players about it, you aren't doing anything to change things. I doubt anyone's been converted to the other camp during this thread (and there have been other threads in the past). Talk to the people who make the decisions at these companies, not us. Walk the talk.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

4. If you can't solder like a champ, you're a chump. High blood pressure and vision problems are just two known issues that make it difficult to solder. Try working with a Triple Shot with both high blood pressure and vision problems, in your lap.

What does high blood pressure have to do with soldering? I have HBP too and it's not a problem for me.

If you wait for a problem before devising a solution for it, I feel for you. Those who can look ahead and come up with progressive ideas should not be belittled by those who cannot.

This philosophy strikes me as odd. Don't you have to have the problem before you can have any idea what the solution might be? If I am a patient with all kinds of non-existent health problems (in other words, in good health), what is the cure? Should I be given chemotherapy, insulin or antibiotics anyway, just in case?

Don't misunderstand, I'm not a Luddite and I do not demand anyone necessarily accept anything. I have no problem with anyone who wants to quick-connectify their harness and pickups. More power to you. But demanding that every pickup and guitar manufacturer do it FOR you strikes me as going to a restaurant and demanding that they lift the fork to your mouth. If it's really that great an idea and it's so easy, then DIY. No-one will be able to customize it to get around potential lead-length, woodwork, or other potential obstacles in your guitar than you.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

This is a defective product, if it won't fit a standard cable through. It is asking for trouble as whatever is in there will have to be tiny, fragile, and likely to bind.

if a guitar will pass a standard aftermarket pickup wire like what duncan uses, mine fit through, so either way it is a strawman. A connector can be added with no extra bulk. I have owned literally hundreds of guitars and have never encountered this. It does not make good sense as most guitar wire is fairly narrow. The braided shield old style stuff is one of the widest varieties I have encountered.

I can solder quite well, but the fact is, there is damage possible to pots and guitars when you solder inside a guitar cavity. Just because guitarists can be completely opposed to improvements (And it is an improvement to be able to replace a pickup without heating a pot repeatedly) does not mean this is reasonable. It just shows they are stubborn and stodgy.

I am saying that if you want it, you can make it very cheaply and the guys saying it is hard or impossible are just not being reasonable as it is ridiculously easy to do. I can say this, because I have done it. I do it on my new builds. The biggest advantage is no risk of heat damage to a finish and I can easily preassemble electronics for the cavity without being cramped.

It is easy and can be DIY'd for about 25 guitars for roughly $10 using off the shelf parts.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

This is a defective product, if it won't fit a standard cable through. It is asking for trouble as whatever is in there will have to be tiny, fragile, and likely to bind.

if a guitar will pass a standard aftermarket pickup wire like what duncan uses, mine fit through, so either way it is a strawman.

I've run into it, it does exist and it's not a design flaw. The manufacturer's PU wires fit thru the channel as intended, and that's all they needed to be concerned with when they designed it. They are under no obligation to engineer their guitars so that aftermarket parts fit. Not really a selling point. 'Wait, buy this one instead! You can fit thicker wires in it.' They're not going to see a line outside the door from that exciting news.

You're soldering inside guitar cavities? No wonder why it's difficult. I always lift the pots and switches out and lay them on a thick towel on top of the guitar. Nothing gets burnt, everything's easy to access.

Like Zhang said: 'Demanding that every pickup and guitar manufacturer do it FOR you' seeems pretty unrealistic. And you're still arguing with the wrong people. Put this time and energy into convincing PU makers. Even if I agreed with you, I'm not a decision maker in a PU company. Focus your efforts if you believe in what you say.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

I've run into it, it does exist and it's not a design flaw.

That IS a design flaw. It is a major flaw in the design and it leads to greater problems. Denying it does nothing for your credibility, but acknowledging that intentionally making your product incompatible with industry standards for no reason is a design flaw. Changing pickups period in this defective design would be precluded, not a connector. This is a red herring. And I would avoid such a bad design if I knew about it.

The design requires using thinner wire, runs a higher risk of getting caught, and just generally be a bad design. I always leave enough room in the channels of guitars I build for things to go through smoothly and easily which means I use sufficient size bits when drilling my channels. I want there to be sufficient room so things don't snag without using weird proprietary parts.

You're soldering inside guitar cavities? No wonder why it's difficult. I always lift the pots and switches out and lay them on a thick towel on top of the guitar. Nothing gets burnt, everything's easy to access.

Quite frequently necessary in conventional guitars, as there is not enough of a bridge ground wire to remove the harness and not have to do at least one connection inside the cavity. I prefer to have everything all neat outside the guitar and plug it in. It is much easier. To do that requires 5 plugs in most instances.


I am saying DIY, and here is how. I think it is silly that pickup makers have not started using basic connections. I do think it cuts into the market especially as younger folks don't generally know how to solder, but they can plug wires in like an EMG. If you made pickup swapping easier, more folks would likely do it.

Even if propietary, a SD harness ala EMG would make it so that pickup swapping was more accessible to the masses.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

The braided shield old style stuff is one of the widest varieties I have encountered.

My eyebrows hit my hairline when I saw that -- not an easy feat these days. Wider than 4-conductor? Just grabbed one of each and the trusty micrometer. Braid measures .077", the 4-con .122". It's not close.

I can solder quite well, but the fact is, there is damage possible to pots and guitars when you solder inside a guitar cavity.

This is a legitimate concern, but usually avoided if you use an iron of at least 40 watts, preferably 50 or more with temp control. Really hot and quick gets it done with far less heat transferred to the component than if you use a lower rated iron that forces you to hold it against the pot for much, much longer.

Just because guitarists can be completely opposed to improvements (And it is an improvement to be able to replace a pickup without heating a pot repeatedly) does not mean this is reasonable. It just shows they are stubborn and stodgy.

It doesn't mean it's not reasonable either, and so far in this thread I've seen no shortage of stubbornness and stodginess from the opposing camp. You can't put that all on us.

I am saying that if you want it, you can make it very cheaply and the guys saying it is hard or impossible are just not being reasonable as it is ridiculously easy to do. I can say this, because I have done it. I do it on my new builds.
The biggest advantage is no risk of heat damage to a finish and I can easily preassemble electronics for the cavity without being cramped. It is easy and can be DIY'd for about 25 guitars for roughly $10 using off the shelf parts.

Both Blueman and I have pointed out easy ways to avoid finish damage. Not a big deal. Otherwise, this is where we agree. If you can QC-ify your own guitar, and someone with soldering skills should be easily able to do that, then more power to you. It doesn't seem to me to be a difficult mod to your guitar at all.

My point is and always has been that YOU know your own guitars far better than any pickup winder and can anticipate and thus solve all potential problems. From tens/hundreds/thousands of miles away, we winders can't so don't look to us for it.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

My eyebrows hit my hairline when I saw that -- not an easy feat these days. Wider than 4-conductor? Just grabbed one of each and the trusty micrometer. Braid measures .077", the 4-con .122". It's not close.

Old stuff with cloth under the braid that I have on some old pickups is visibly larger. I don't know why, and there are clearly some variances, especially when you pull in stuff from the 50's and sixties which I do play around with. I have some that is quite thick. Has the braid relaxed over time? Quite possibly.

This is a legitimate concern, but usually avoided if you use an iron of at least 40 watts, preferably 50 or more with temp control. Really hot and quick gets it done with far less heat transferred to the component than if you use a lower rated iron that forces you to hold it against the pot for much, much longer.

For me it is the repetition when you heat a pot 10xs to swap out pickups when trying to voice a new build.

It doesn't mean it's not reasonable either, and so far in this thread I've seen no shortage of stubbornness and stodginess from the opposing camp. You can't put that all on us.

By definition, that would be kind of difficult since pushing for innovation that is 30 years overdue is not stodgy. The issue is that this is definitely something that limits the market for aftermarket winders.

Both Blueman and I have pointed out easy ways to avoid finish damage. Not a big deal. Otherwise, this is where we agree. If you can QC-ify your own guitar, and someone with soldering skills should be easily able to do that, then more power to you. It doesn't seem to me to be a difficult mod to your guitar at all.

It is easy. Thats part of why I think manufacturers really should come up with a standard, the emg style being the most obvious choice. Some folks would hate them, but it could expand the market to folks who can't solder. I can solder. Most people my age and younger can't. Your folks into rock and roll with a disposable income are largely younger than me. Thus, the issue is one where for guys like me, no problem, I have a functional solution.

My point is and always has been that YOU know your own guitars far better than any pickup winder and can anticipate and thus solve all potential problems. From tens/hundreds/thousands of miles away, we winders can't so don't look to us for it.

It is an issue where innovation is being tossed aside. I think for obvious reasons, a pickup changing solution should be an easy retrofit, but, I think it should be made to increase sales, because as time goes by, your tinkerers who know how to solder are going to be a decreased number. Making your product easier to install would remove barriers to sales.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

- By definition, that would be kind of difficult since pushing for innovation that is 30 years overdue is not stodgy.
- The issue is that this is definitely something that limits the market for aftermarket winders.
- It is an issue where innovation is being tossed aside.
- I think for obvious reasons, a pickup changing solution should be an easy retrofit...Making your product easier to install would remove barriers to sales.

- '30 years overdue' according to who? The vast majority of the guitar players aren't demanding it. If manufacturers perceived a market for it, there would have been universal connectors on most PU's long ago. You keep trying to convince us...talk to the people who make PU's.

- How does it 'Limit the market for aftermarket winders'? Zhang: how would this effect you, in any scenario?

- Innovation isn't always practical or even a good idea. 'New' isn't always better. Lots of new things flop, and often because they ignore the realties involved (underestimating costs, overestimating demand, bad timing, etc). You believe so strongly in this...how much of your time and money are you putting into this?

- 'Retrofit'? On top of redesigning PU's and guitars, making them cassette style for quick change, that isn't enough of an investment of other people's money? Now you want them to design and build retrofit parts? You expect them to lay out more of their money? It's incredible what you expect others to do financially to accommodate you, and I've yet to see where you've made any effort to even contact these companies to promote your innovations.

There's no need for the people wanting all these quick change PU's and guitars to get worked up at the rest of us. Put those energies into what you say you believe in. Do something constructive to make a change. Maybe they'll listen to you. Maybe it will happen. But I'm sure nothing will change if you just sit here and get mad at us.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

You're soldering inside guitar cavities? No wonder why it's difficult. I always lift the pots and switches out and lay them on a thick towel on top of the guitar. Nothing gets burnt, everything's easy to access

This is a legitimate concern, but usually avoided if you use an iron of at least 40 watts, preferably 50 or more with temp control. Really hot and quick gets it done with far less heat transferred to the component than if you use a lower rated iron that forces you to hold it against the pot for much, much longer.
. . .
Both Blueman and I have pointed out easy ways to avoid finish damage. Not a big deal. Otherwise, this is where we agree. If you can QC-ify your own guitar, and someone with soldering skills should be easily able to do that, then more power to you. It doesn't seem to me to be a difficult mod to your guitar at all.

Sounds like quick change capability isn't what's needed as much as better, more visible/available/prominent and authoritative training on how to solder and repair guitars.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

- '30 years overdue' according to who? The vast majority of the guitar players aren't demanding it. If manufacturers perceived a market for it, there would have been universal connectors on most PU's long ago. You keep trying to convince us...talk to the people who make PU's.

- How does it 'Limit the market for aftermarket winders'? Zhang: how would this effect you, in any scenario?

- Innovation isn't always practical or even a good idea. 'New' isn't always better. Lots of new things flop, and often because they ignore the realties involved (underestimating costs, overestimating demand, bad timing, etc). You believe so strongly in this...how much of your time and money are you putting into this?

- 'Retrofit'? On top of redesigning PU's and guitars, making them cassette style for quick change, that isn't enough of an investment of other people's money? Now you want them to design and build retrofit parts? You expect them to lay out more of their money? It's incredible what you expect others to do financially to accommodate you, and I've yet to see where you've made any effort to even contact these companies to promote your innovations.

There's no need for the people wanting all these quick change PU's and guitars to get worked up at the rest of us. Put those energies into what you say you believe in. Do something constructive to make a change. Maybe they'll listen to you. Maybe it will happen. But I'm sure nothing will change if you just sit here and get mad at us.

Clearly you are opposed to a conversation that makes sense.

Red herring #1 The too narrow channels for any aftermarket pickups. A quick connect system is unrelated to that.
Red Herring #2 I am not talking about cassette style. I am talking about using some form of molex connector, like every modern bit of electronics.

How does it limit the market for winders? Seriously if you can't see that, I can't imagine breaking it down further would help.
Currently, pickup swapping is a niche market. It requires knowing how to solder.

Removing that requirement opens up the market to those who don't know how to solder.

Retrofitting could be simpler than a liberator. I am saying the system could literally be as simple as snapping it together in seconds, using off the shelf parts. You clearly are incapable of reading to write the crap you wrote. I am saying that the system could be easily sold and retrofitted. Think of it as a new market, like the liberator, only going further.

You clearly are all about twisting words. Because I have been talking about simple molex. Installs in seconds, and enables very quick changes with no tools. I am talking about a system I have implemented at a cost of maybe a couple cents per pickup buying as a consumer. No development required. Dirt cheap, no soldering required once installed.

I will say that the reason it would be a good idea for winders is it is almost no materials cost, no R & D required, and opens a market to those who can't solder. Fighting this sort of innovation serves no purpose. A cassete system is not practical. A quick change system is a good development model to expand market share. Sell a retrofit kit like emg to defray cost if you like.

No offense to Zhang as he is a gifted winder but I think something like this would require being seymour duncan or Dimarzio. I don't think he would see a bump in sales. Even though he makes a heck of a pickup.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

So have you talked to Duncan, DiMarzio, etc about using Molex conenctors? Again, you're trying to convince people who don't make those decisions.

 

[santellan]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

So have you talked to Duncan, DiMarzio, etc about using Molex conenctors? Again, you're trying to convince people who don't make those decisions.

The need for connectors or pluggable pins on the end of pickup wires are not necessary. There are quick-connect wiring harnesses in the market that allow you to use just the bare wire. It serves the same purpose as a molex connector but solves the problem of wire channels being too small to fit anything besides the pickup wires in vintage guitars. Plus you can use any vendor's pickup which gives you a greater selection to pick from. They are hybrid types (Liberator) and full solderless systems (Obsidian, Mad Hatter, Toneshaper, Elek-Trix,etc) which vary only in the features they provide and in how they make that last mile connection. Awareness and acceptance of these wiring harnesses is another issue but the market trends seem to point that it will continue to grow in this direction.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

The need for connectors or pluggable pins on the end of pickup wires are not necessary. There are quick-connect wiring harnesses in the market that allow you to use just the bare wire...Plus you can use any vendor's pickup which gives you a greater selection to pick from.

I tried to tell them that a few pages back, Larry.

Listen to Larry and me, kids, we eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff.

 

[dukebox]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

I can't tell who is trying to convince who of what anymore!

 

[jonsick]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

Not read the whole thread, but can +1 on the Liberator. Excellent pieces and make pickup changing simple as. The initial set up needed a bit of troubleshooting for me, but other than that, it's a great system.

 

[dominus]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

The need for connectors or pluggable pins on the end of pickup wires are not necessary. There are quick-connect wiring harnesses in the market that allow you to use just the bare wire. It serves the same purpose as a molex connector but solves the problem of wire channels being too small to fit anything besides the pickup wires in vintage guitars. Plus you can use any vendor's pickup which gives you a greater selection to pick from. They are hybrid types (Liberator) and full solderless systems (Obsidian, Mad Hatter, Toneshaper, Elek-Trix,etc) which vary only in the features they provide and in how they make that last mile connection. Awareness and acceptance of these wiring harnesses is another issue but the market trends seem to point that it will continue to grow in this direction.

View attachment 63187

But that one requires that the board fits the electronics cavity. That might fit a strat pickguard, but it's still a bit of added bulk. Better to have the components individually:

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

No offense to Zhang as he is a gifted winder but I think something like this would require being seymour duncan or Dimarzio. I don't think he would see a bump in sales. Even though he makes a heck of a pickup.

None taken. It would take big names like Duncan and DiMarzio to move this ball down the field. I don't have nearly enough juice that something I do would sway the whole industry. Santellan's idea makes much more sense.

 

[santellan]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

The blade or toggle switch is usually the tallest component so cavity depth and size is not an issue. The manufacturers I listed provide many different form factors all which have a lower profile than the switch so they can fit in most guitars, some in one piece others as individual parts.

 

[Supra]

Re: Easy pickup changing solution

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