Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

[longbowman]

Hi folks,

Trying to figure out what would go best in this Epiphone Gothic SG. I've watched Keith Merrow's videos and these are the ones that stood out to me. I'm looking to replace the ridiculously muddy stock pickups in this guitar for drop tuning purposes (probably in the C standard range, maybe drop B in Db standard). I play a decent amount of stuff in the progressive vein, but I have a PRS for standard tuning (i.e. Opeth/Ihsahn/etc) and am looking for pickups that can handle lower-tuned stuff better than my PRS's HFS/VB (it gets quite dark quite quickly in lower tunings and doesn't sound very focused). Will probably just be replacing the bridge pickup for now.

I'd like something that can pull off cleans as well; while my HFS can coilsplit, cleans sound like a nasal mess with it.

A rather wide variety of tones here, but looking for something in the range of:
(Yes there's a 7-string, but Kevin plays an SG in C):
https://youtu.be/7LQd0IoJ25M

https://youtu.be/CPRBOTp19jQ

https://youtu.be/BGHlZwMYO9g

https://youtu.be/E-P7YbMup9k?t=32s

I know they're rather different tonally, but the main point is being able to get aggressive and crunchy while retaining clarity and being able to pull off cleans (Face of Melinda-esque).

I'm gravitating towards the Nazgul, mostly because of the name to be completely honest. The Pegasus sounds quite nice but I'm worried it will sound muddy in this guitar. BW's seem to get a lot of love here, and I do also love Jeff Loomis' signature pickups but I've always avoided actives.

 

[Toejam]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

I had the 7-string version of the Custom in an old Schecter, and currently have the Nazgul in an 8-string Carvin. Neither are muddy and do well with lower tunings.

 

[dxlxntxxlxr]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Hi folks,

Trying to figure out what would go best in this Epiphone Gothic SG. I've watched Keith Merrow's videos and these are the ones that stood out to me. I'm looking to replace the ridiculously muddy stock pickups in this guitar for drop tuning purposes (probably in the C standard range, maybe drop B in Db standard). I play a decent amount of stuff in the progressive vein, but I have a PRS for standard tuning (i.e. Opeth/Ihsahn/etc) and am looking for pickups that can handle lower-tuned stuff better than my PRS's HFS/VB (it gets quite dark quite quickly in lower tunings and doesn't sound very focused). Will probably just be replacing the bridge pickup for now.

I'd like something that can pull off cleans as well; while my HFS can coilsplit, cleans sound like a nasal mess with it.

A rather wide variety of tones here, but looking for something in the range of:
(Yes there's a 7-string, but Kevin plays an SG in C):
https://youtu.be/7LQd0IoJ25M

https://youtu.be/CPRBOTp19jQ

https://youtu.be/BGHlZwMYO9g

https://youtu.be/E-P7YbMup9k?t=32s

I know they're rather different tonally, but the main point is being able to get aggressive and crunchy while retaining clarity and being able to pull off cleans (Face of Melinda-esque).

I'm gravitating towards the Nazgul, mostly because of the name to be completely honest. The Pegasus sounds quite nice but I'm worried it will sound muddy in this guitar. BW's seem to get a lot of love here, and I do also love Jeff Loomis' signature pickups but I've always avoided actives.

Im a prog guy myself, and personally a nazgul wouldnt be my first choice. Its the only one of those ive played. I generally thought it was an awesome. I played the 7 string version in keith merrows lambo blue sig (awesome guitar btw). Super aggressive and reasonably clear and well balanced. Where it fell short for me was with big dissonant chords. it didnt stay as clear as my dmz titan, or the dmz illuminator, or the bkp juggernaut. if ur absolutely set on duncans, then id look into the omega. I personally wasnt a fan, it was a bit hollow in the low mids, but if the dmz titan is anything to go by, the omega will be super sensitive to height adjustments. I havent written off the omega. For prog styles required a ton of clarity, id also look into the dmz titan or anything from the bkp contemporary range (whatever suits your fancy as ive heard good things about all of it, but ive only played juggernauts).

 

[longbowman]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Thanks for the input guys!

Are 6 and 7 string pickups comparable? I know the output and resistance changes, but how does that affect tone?

While I am looking for something that can pull off chords with clarity, I'm not looking for a Periphery-esque super-modern tone. Again, sorta all over the map, but for "prog" I'd think more in the realm of Opeth's My Arms Your Hearse which was a little more black-metal sounding chord-wise -- still clarity in the chords, but not pristine or anything. Since I'll mainly be gearing this guitar towards lower tunings, it simply has to achieve the semi-clarity of i.e. Gorguts chords. Since it's a shorter-scale guitar and mahogany/rosewood (not terribly thick at that), I'm not expecting to be able to get tons of clarity out of it in i.e. A standard or anything. I'll probably be getting a baritone or longer-scale guitar for that eventually.
Black Winters seem rather well-suited to versatility, as far as I can see with demos. Nazguls sound great with lower strings but higher string notes don't seem to sound that great compared to others.

 

[dxlxntxxlxr]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Thanks for the input guys!

Are 6 and 7 string pickups comparable? I know the output and resistance changes, but how does that affect tone?

While I am looking for something that can pull off chords with clarity, I'm not looking for a Periphery-esque super-modern tone. Again, sorta all over the map, but for "prog" I'd think more in the realm of Opeth's My Arms Your Hearse which was a little more black-metal sounding chord-wise -- still clarity in the chords, but not pristine or anything. Since I'll mainly be gearing this guitar towards lower tunings, it simply has to achieve the semi-clarity of i.e. Gorguts chords. Since it's a shorter-scale guitar and mahogany/rosewood (not terribly thick at that), I'm not expecting to be able to get tons of clarity out of it in i.e. A standard or anything. I'll probably be getting a baritone or longer-scale guitar for that eventually.
Black Winters seem rather well-suited to versatility, as far as I can see with demos. Nazguls sound great with lower strings but higher string notes don't seem to sound that great compared to others.

based on this description black winters would be perfect

 

[longbowman]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Based on demos it honestly sounds like the Nazgul has more clarity. Are the cleans and lower gain capabilities not there compared to BW?
As far as prog goes, I should emphasize that I really don't like the modern "prog" sound -- when I say prog I mean in the vein of Porcupine Tree, Gorguts, Beyond Creation, Gojira, Opeth, Witherscape, Ihsahn, Edge of Sanity, Wintersun, etc. Massive range of tones there, but all that to say I really dislike the "djenty" kind of hyper processed sound (although AAL and the like do it well for extended range instruments).

 

[dxlxntxxlxr]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Based on demos it honestly sounds like the Nazgul has more clarity. Are the cleans and lower gain capabilities not there compared to BW?
As far as prog goes, I should emphasize that I really don't like the modern "prog" sound -- when I say prog I mean in the vein of Porcupine Tree, Gorguts, Beyond Creation, Gojira, Opeth, Witherscape, Ihsahn, Edge of Sanity, Wintersun, etc. Massive range of tones there, but all that to say I really dislike the "djenty" kind of hyper processed sound (although AAL and the like do it well for extended range instruments).

Nazgul is not a clear pickup. Nazgul is like a modernized distortion. Dmz titan or black winter probably be good. I have a titan but havent played the bw

 

[6stringerguy]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Well ola from feared uses a custom 5 alnico
What amp are you using as high output picks with a lot of gain from the amp just sound crap

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Depending on how important cleans are for you, you may want the Pegasus. Although the Black Winter should be fine clean if you use the volume pot or split. I wouldn't recommend Nazgul for that. This guy lives in the overdrive channel, period.

Haven't tried the Custom.

 

[longbowman]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Nazgul is not a clear pickup. Nazgul is like a modernized distortion. Dmz titan or black winter probably be good. I have a titan but havent played the bw

I'll have to rely on what people say for this one, because in Keith's demos I hear the BW as being slightly darker and honkier than the Nazgul.

Well ola from feared uses a custom 5 alnico
What amp are you using as high output picks with a lot of gain from the amp just sound crap

Mostly running it through amp sims for now. Been using mainly a Marshall JVM-based sim, or just a 5150. True, but if gain is turned down?

Depending on how important cleans are for you, you may want the Pegasus. Although the Black Winter should be fine clean if you use the volume pot or split. I wouldn't recommend Nazgul for that. This guy lives in the overdrive channel, period.

Haven't tried the Custom.

I'm only looking to replace the bridge pickup for the time being as I don't have the cash to do both. Good to know re: Nazgul. Sounds promising for a 7-string but less so for versatility, based on all the feedback I've read. The only thing about the Pegasus is that I'm not sure it will be able to hit a tighter high-gain sound in a short-scale mahogany guitar. It sounds wonderfully smooth and proggy, but not really death-metal-y. Maybe I can't have it all!
I'm basically trying to hit general, decent sounding cleans as well as clarity for higher-gain stuff. I hadn't really considered the Fishman pickups, are they worth comparing, or will they be considerably more expensive?

A good comparison would be trying to hit a tone like:
https://youtu.be/suG-c_i2fBQ

as well as
https://youtu.be/7LQd0IoJ25M

as well as
https://youtu.be/cOhEgg2jNSw

as well as tightened up, like:
https://youtu.be/Vs5727QFhtw

A few seconds of each will give you the right idea. I'm starting to wonder if active pickups would be a better idea for the higher gain stuff (I think Bloodbath used EMG's on the EP?), as Wintersun uses them, but then Gorguts uses passives, as does Gojira and Opeth.

I almost pulled the trigger on Black Winter's but I'm concerned about that "pick chirp" honkyness I hear in some demos.

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

So, if you want "cleans" like in the Gojira song you can use any pickup you want, IMO. I'm hearing a slight warm overdrive touch there anyway. I'd pull the trigger on BW then. I personally don't have any noticeable disgusting pick chirps when I play.

 

[dave74]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Nazgul

emg81/60 would also be good, but they can feel a little "soft" in full-mahogany/rosewood guitars, nice saturation though.

 

[longbowman]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

So, if you want "cleans" like in the Gojira song you can use any pickup you want, IMO. I'm hearing a slight warm overdrive touch there anyway. I'd pull the trigger on BW then. I personally don't have any noticeable disgusting pick chirps when I play.

Good point. I was sort of racking my mind for trying to find a good clean sound, but I suppose Opeth is probably the best example. That said, while I was originally not considering the neck pickup, I found a set for around $200 CAD which is absolutely worth it I think.

I've been thinking too that I really do like Tosin's jazzy cleans, but I'm starting to wonder if my "I need it to do everything" criteria is maybe moving away from what the guitar should be. I'm not sure it's appropriate to get into 25.5"+ length, super-strat territory with an Epiphone SG. I was considering Fishman Fluence, but I think they may be better suited to a different guitar down the road.
What I like about the BW's tone chart is that it seems rather midrange heavy, and if "honk" is a problem some slight EQ makes it easy to clean up (better than trying to add EQ). Do you tune low? I like that grindy sort of Bloodbath tone that still has clarity but good high-mids (not the early Boss HM tone, specifically the Unblessing tone).

 

[longbowman]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Nazgul

emg81/60 would also be good, but they can feel a little "soft" in full-mahogany/rosewood guitars, nice saturation though.

Any particular reason why? The consensus seems to be that the Nazgul isn't a terribly clear pickup.

Eh I don't think EMG's would be a good fit, the only actives I've liked are Loomis' sig pickups and Fishmans, both of which seem better suited to different guitars.

 

[dave74]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Any particular reason why? The consensus seems to be that the Nazgul isn't a terribly clear pickup.

Eh I don't think EMG's would be a good fit, the only actives I've liked are Loomis' sig pickups and Fishmans, both of which seem better suited to different guitars.

"Clear" means different things to different people. I haven't played the Nazgul myself so all I'm going on is my ears and the KM demos.
It's made to produce clarity for low tunings which usually means a tighter more solid bass with less mushiness.
Full mahogany/rosewood tends to have a wonderful natural sponginess so I just believe it's a better match given the tone you're after.

The regular Distortion model has some more "give" to the lows, and I'm assuming the BW is much the same,,,,,plus that's how I hear them on the demos.

Clear means transparent to many people,,,,,,and none of these models are really that. The Pegasus would come the closest.

Clear means having a lot of upper-mids and/or treble, and/or presence to some people, and by that definition you can have a model that's clear in the uppers yet a bit mushy in the bass,,,,,,,like the Distortion and other very-high output models (x2n for example).

 

[dxlxntxxlxr]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

"Clear" means different things to different people. I haven't played the Nazgul myself so all I'm going on is my ears and the KM demos.
It's made to produce clarity for low tunings which usually means a tighter more solid bass with less mushiness.
Full mahogany/rosewood tends to have a wonderful natural sponginess so I just believe it's a better match given the tone you're after.

The regular Distortion model has some more "give" to the lows, and I'm assuming the BW is much the same,,,,,plus that's how I hear them on the demos.

Clear means transparent to many people,,,,,,and none of these models are really that. The Pegasus would come the closest.

Clear means having a lot of upper-mids and/or treble, and/or presence to some people, and by that definition you can have a model that's clear in the uppers yet a bit mushy in the bass,,,,,,,like the Distortion and other very-high output models (x2n for example).

personally when i say a pickup is clear, im referring to being able to heard every note in a big chord evenly

 

[dave74]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

personally when i say a pickup is clear, im referring to being able to heard every note in a big chord evenly

^^^And that's another common definition of clarity.

 

[longbowman]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

"Clear" means different things to different people. I haven't played the Nazgul myself so all I'm going on is my ears and the KM demos.
It's made to produce clarity for low tunings which usually means a tighter more solid bass with less mushiness.
Full mahogany/rosewood tends to have a wonderful natural sponginess so I just believe it's a better match given the tone you're after.

The regular Distortion model has some more "give" to the lows, and I'm assuming the BW is much the same,,,,,plus that's how I hear them on the demos.

Clear means transparent to many people,,,,,,and none of these models are really that. The Pegasus would come the closest.

Clear means having a lot of upper-mids and/or treble, and/or presence to some people, and by that definition you can have a model that's clear in the uppers yet a bit mushy in the bass,,,,,,,like the Distortion and other very-high output models (x2n for example).

Good point! I found a new set of Black Winters on Ebay for $145USD however, so I snagged it today. The tonal differences are really rather subtle, and for the $90 difference a set would cost me, I'll just play with these. Purely going by the Merrow demos, I completely agree -- what's throwing me are the other demos online. The Nazgul sounds a bit more low-mid-y, something that's driving me nuts with my PRS's HFS. Purely going for a humbucker, I was a bit flippant, but I watched the Wes Hauch demo for the neck pickup and it's amazing how it cleans up too. Everything I'm reading seems to indicate the BW's being more versatile, so I guess I'll see how that goes :15: . Will report back on tone and maybe even throw up a demo of things I couldn't find myself.

 

[dave74]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

Yeah the Nazgul sounds to have more lower-mids and maybe more spiked upper-mids, but the BW sounds like the mids are broader and more total, not notched-out in the center.
BW is probably the safer bet for versatility anyways.

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: Epiphone SG -- Nazgul, Pegasus, Custom, or BW?

What I like about the BW's tone chart is that it seems rather midrange heavy, and if "honk" is a problem some slight EQ makes it easy to clean up (better than trying to add EQ). Do you tune low? I like that grindy sort of Bloodbath tone that still has clarity but good high-mids (not the early Boss HM tone, specifically the Unblessing tone).

Someone described BW to me as having "expanded treble range". For instance, the Black Winter hat less growl on low end than Duncan Distortion to my ears. But I cannot compare these pickups directly and I made records with them using different equipment. I also found that for BW I need an OD or booster with my amp (Randall Diavlo) to cut some some treble. But perhaps you wouldn't need one. I played also through Peavey Bravo 112. Sounds fantastic without any external enhancement.

I play Drop C with BW and also will definitely put a set in my C guitar.