Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Lewguitar said:
I never play anything that I don't hear in my head.

That's all I play: what I hear.

If I don't hear it, I don't play it.

Lew

For some reason, If I don't play, I don't hear anything. I really, really need to figure out that hear it then play it thing. I really, really don't want to be a guy who just plays notes, scales, patterns.
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Cool! I think your main problem was with the key signature though. I remember you saying stuff like how can a Bb7 chord exist in Bb when the 7th in Bb is A and not Ab. I think what you failed to consider is that music seldom remains in the same key for long.

Based on your previous diatonic train of thought a Bb blues would literally be in the key of Bb. Actually, Bb7 is the 5 chord in Eb isn't it? So why do people call it a Bb blues? The answer is because it's simpler to say Bb blues. That way everyone knows that the first chord is Bb7. It's really no more complicated than that! It's a traditional thing.

The next chord would probably, according to tradition be Eb7. That's the 5 chord in Ab right? Just think of it as another key change. That would fit your diatonic view perfectly. In classical music key signature changes were notated in the score. In modern styles such notation is often skipped. You should be able to see that the key has changed by simply looking at the chords. Better yet don't worry about! Treat each chord as its own individual entity instead.
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Guitar Toad said:
For some reason, If I don't play, I don't hear anything. I really, really need to figure out that hear it then play it thing. I really, really don't want to be a guy who just plays notes, scales, patterns.

Just play stuff you can sing. Only sing it in your head...

That, to me, is why so many guys all sound the same. They don't phrase.

They just play a bunch of up and down picking technique and other boring non musical stuff.

Try singing a melodic and cool line and then find the notes to play it.

Everything BB King plays can be sung...that's why I like that kind of playing I guess.

Lew
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Lewguitar said:
Just play stuff you can sing. Only sing it in your head...

That, to me, is why so many guys all sound the same. They don't phrase.

They just play a bunch of up and down picking technique and other boring non musical stuff.

Try singing a melodic and cool line and then find the notes to play it.

Everything BB King plays can be sung...that's why I like that kind of playing I guess.

Lew

A while ago Seafoamer encouraged me to learn how to play simple stuff that I already know and learn to play it anywhere on the neck. Jingle Bells, ABC's, The National Anthem, Amazing Grace etc. I've been doing alot of that kind of stuff lately. It's been a good exercise. I think that's the kind of thing your saying. I've been having fun with that. I've started humming with playing as a method the learn how to play "what I hear in my head".
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

The problem is that the ear can't hear through complex harmonies unless you're one of those people with perfect pitch. If not you will find that playing by ear will often place limits on the imagination. Look no further as an example of this than Carlos Santana. Not to say he's not a good if not great musician. But a lot of his soloing is cliche'. There is a certain predictability in his playing which results from strictly relying on ear training.
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Guitar Toad said:
A while ago Seafoamer encouraged me to learn how to play simple stuff that I already know and learn to play it anywhere on the neck. Jingle Bells, ABC's, The National Anthem, Amazing Grace etc. I've been doing alot of that kind of stuff lately. It's been a good exercise. I think that's the kind of thing your saying. I've been having fun with that. I've started humming with playing as a method the learn how to play "what I hear in my head".

There ya go!

Learning modes and stuff is cool...and it'll teach your ears some new tricks.

But playing that stuff without knowing what it's going to sound like and without having those sounds in your head first seems backwards to me.

Kinda like the music playing YOU instead of you playin the music.

Guess it works both ways though.
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

In response to your first post Toad, I think that it is a good idea to learn how to build chords and such. But, modes/scales are directly related to chords. Every chord has a corresponding mode and each mode has it's own mood.
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I can listen to an AC/DC or Judas Priest or other similar stuff and figure out the chords and some of the lead parts. But, for some reason I'm struggling to figure out some seemingly easy blues lead stuff. but, that's ok. I don't really need to figure out what another guy has played. I'm wanting to play my own stuff and develop my own voice. But, I'd sure like to be able to play anything I hear. But, that'll come with time. I hope or believe it will anyway.
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

To me, modes are really only important for setting up one or two chord vamps. Going beyond a one or two chord vamp, I feel that you're really not sitting in a mode or certain type of sound anymore, making modal scales a little out of place. At that point, it's all about target notes and just playing from your heart/mind. At the same time, using the theory derived tools to make sure you play from your heart/mind well.

SRV never read music and I heard in an interview on a CD that he plays from his heart and not his mind so much.

If I start to slip out of sounding good, perhaps the chord progression is intense or I'm just having an off night, I'll fall back on shapes/patterns. That's rare though.
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Modes are cool as long as they are kept in their proper context. The problem is that a lot of guys that preach modal playing put entirely too much emphasis on the concept.

I wish I had a nickel for everytime I hear some guy grab an axe and play a straight scale verbatim with a bunch of bends and harmonics thrown in and have the audacity to call it a solo! :laugh2: Yes it may sound cool at first but it gets to be old hat after awhile. If you had a job at a guitar store you would see what I mean! There has to be a thousand guys a day that walk into a shop and play this stuff with distortion boxes and phase shifters and every effect you can care to name and wonder why they don't have a recording contract! :laugh2:

It's very much like a Zen thing! The trick is to use modes in such a way that it isn't obvious that this is what you're doing! Sorta like playing modes without playing modes!

Not saying that this is what the previous poster is elluding to but you have to be aware of the pitfalls.
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

You guys really should read Toads previous topic before commenting. I think it will help shed some light on what he's refering to concerning his use of modes and stuff. It's probably not what you're thinking.
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

BluesGuyJ said:
To me, modes are really only important for setting up one or two chord vamps. Going beyond a one or two chord vamp, I feel that you're really not sitting in a mode or certain type of sound anymore, making modal scales a little out of place. At that point, it's all about target notes and just playing from your heart/mind. At the same time, using the theory derived tools to make sure you play from your heart/mind well.

When the mode or tonal center of the music changes, you change your mode too.
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

YJM_Rocks said:
When the mode or tonal center of the music changes, you change your mode too.

Yeah! When the song has two chords in it. Try keeping up when you play a style where chords change every two beats or so with key changes all over the place. And do it double time while your at it.

When I perform I want to be relaxed so I can enjoy what I'm doing. I don't want to have to fight my way through the performance goin Lydian, Mixolydian and Phrygian in my head trying to keep up with a thousand chord per minute changes.

It's easy for metalist and rockers to go, "Oh yeah! Modes man!". When you have a week to solo on a single chord it easy isn't it? Try some fast moving II-V-I's! Most cats can't do it! That's a fact!
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I look at modes as a way to learn the sonic differences of "each" tone related to others within a particular key. You have to learn it....you'll be better at chords/harmony and melody by being armed with this sonic knowledge.....you will have spent years perfecting your ears and you'll know what tone sounds good either by itself or against another tone..... so like others have said, you will be able to just "forget and play". However, telling some new kid to just forget and play might tend to confuse him into thinking he doesn't have to learn what to forget. There is a reason to learning the things within the music theory realm.

But after you learn it, the "forgetting it" part is not that you forgot it but rather it has become an innate part of you and what you know and thus it has become automatic.

:)
 
Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

This is what I said in my introduction:
A more important and better focus is to learn chording and chord construction to enable chord tone melody and solo improvisation. After that is learned, then one may begin discussion and thinking about modes.
My error, as much as I can tell, was to overlook chord construction and I attempted to jump straight into modes. I might have been better off to thoroughly work with the standard scales and chord theory before trying to jump straight to modes.

The following will be telling as to whether I've really learned anything or not: A musical composition is usually written in a Key, i.e. the key signature tells the key, not the mode of a song. The key provides some basic structure for the composition. Usually the key is for starting and ending the song. Modes, simply put, are the various voicing or mood that can be given to the key for the song. In the context of the song, don't be limited by the key signature, you can do what you want go where the song leads.

For the record, I recognize that chords, scales, and modes are inextricably linked together and really they cannot be separated. Again, I'm no expert, I'm no teacher of music, but, I'm thinking a better order for learning is the scales, really learn chord theory, then modes.

But, then again, none of us really like being told what we can and can't do. Who says you can't put modes first? Well okay you can. and perhaps you can handle it better than me.

I've seen it in more than one place, and in finally started to sink in, that new guitarists and those new to theory often times put undo emphasis on modes. Forget modes just for enough time to learn and understand chord tone melody and improvization. Then, go on to modes. That's really all that I'm saying. The thread title is probably a bit too sensational. But, I can't change it now. ;)
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Fretology said:
I look at modes as a way to learn the sonic differences of "each" tone related to others within a particular key. You have to learn it....you'll be better at chords/harmony and melody by being armed with this sonic knowledge.....you will have spent years perfecting your ears and you'll know what tone sounds good either by itself or against another tone.....
:)
Man, that is so what I'm trying to do. I need to learn the tones. Get that hand, finger, brain tone linkage established.

I pushed chord theory aside because it appeared quite daunting and intimidating. Then, modes came across my path. I thought I could handle modes, and I think I can. But, I think if I had done the chord tones stuff first, I might have been better equipped to handle the proper use of modes.

I guess in a way it's two sides of the same coin. Chord/modes. Modes/chords. But, as I said earlier, modes like scales without chord building leaves the notes as random tones. Chord theory provides some structure to assembling and using the tones. I think I said that already.:laugh2:
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Theory is valid period. Modes and scales are necessary period. It's in the actual application that many struggle with and come up lacking. Having pursued my degree in music education many years ago, I have had the pleasure to attend clinics in Universities across the country conducted by people whose autographs would earn me a fortune on eBay! :banana:

Once again, the application is the rub. I have seen many stand behind the podium and profess the utility of playing different modes against harmonic structures in the heat of improvisation. It is a perfectly legitimate concept. Nevertheless, all too often when demonstration time comes around many end up playing some Rock or Jazz/Rock Fusion where they get to ride a single chord for 10,000 measures.

When it comes to really complex progressions that pass by quickly, many would get lost if they were not prepared way in advance. By the time you pick which mode you're going to play the progression will have gone by and left you and modulated to a different key. :smack: If you are successful you might get three or four notes out of your mode before you have to change keys. To be honest the only cats I've seen during my life on the planet that truly convinced me that they could thread together modes in a non-rehearsed, realtime, harmonically complex environent include: Herbie Han****, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, Pat Martino and Gary Burton. :bowdown: I'm sure there were many that would have gone on to meet their maker during that time.

All the rest of us mere mortals better have our leadsheets markedup to the max in advance. At least a sketch or solo template or something if we know the changes are gonna be complex. :eek13:
 
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Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Osensei said:
Cool! I think your main problem was with the key signature though. I remember you saying stuff like how can a Bb7 chord exist in Bb when the 7th in Bb is A and not Ab. I think what you failed to consider is that music seldom remains in the same key for long.

Based on your previous diatonic train of thought a Bb blues would literally be in the key of Bb. Actually, Bb7 is the 5 chord in Eb isn't it? So why do people call it a Bb blues? The answer is because it's simpler to say Bb blues. That way everyone knows that the first chord is Bb7. It's really no more complicated than that! It's a traditional thing.

The next chord would probably, according to tradition be Eb7. That's the 5 chord in Ab right? Just think of it as another key change. That would fit your diatonic view perfectly. In classical music key signature changes were notated in the score. In modern styles such notation is often skipped. You should be able to see that the key has changed by simply looking at the chords. Better yet don't worry about! Treat each chord as its own individual entity instead.

My problem before was like this. In the Am pentatonic, A Blues, and then playing an A7 (A,C#,E,G but since I'm talking blues I should say A,Db,E,G) there's no C#/Db unless you add in a natural 3. Which I have since learned is acceptable. The blues is free and accepting of additional notes as needed.
 
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