Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

If you ignore the key signature then that does'nt make you sound progressive or conservative. Only the choice of notes that you play can do that. The problem is that much of the music you encounter will have chords in it that deviate from the key signature. Maj7 chords where there should be dom 7th. Minor chords where the key calls for a major. Dom 7ths were the key would otherwise indicate a maj7. Altered chords and the list goes on.

If you just try to home in on what key your in you'll likely miss something. That's when you'll really end up sounding progressive!:laugh2: If you explore each chord and apply melodic motifs against them in turn by using their related families of scales/modes then you're not likely to sound very progressive at all unless you try to. But you will be guaranteed that you won't get any unexpected curves thrown at you.

 

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Mixolydian is what happens when jazz snobs play the blues/ :13:

Just kidding... the minute I got the hang of it I've started incorporating all modes into my playing. The easiest way for me was to figure out how would they relate to the blues pentatonic patterns that I play.
Now I just play whatever I feel or think and in the middle I sometimes notice stuff like- hey that was a harmonic minor I just did... cool....
:kabong:

I've found that you can't come into a new style with preconceived notions. There are all sorts of stylistic, historical and traditional mechanisms at work that the theoretical book worm hasn't considered. Seek stylistic understanding first then apply the theory to explain what you have learned. This is where people who try to cross over to different stlyes get tripped up! They end up saying, "This should work!". Well it doesn't!

 

[Stratman]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Learn to play different versions of chords.

Minors, Major, 7th, 5th , 9th, 11th, 13th, augmented, etc...

Then work out the differences in the chords while playing different versions in the same box.

Then work out the notes that can be played as single notes and again in combination with other notes.

PRACTICE

Record yourself

PRACTICE more and learn from your mistakes.

Sometimes, those mistakes lead to learning new ways of playing

USE ALL YOUR FINGERS --- On Both Hands

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

If you ignore the key signature then that does'nt make you sound progressive or conservative. Only the choice of notes that you play can do that. The problem is that much of the music you encounter will have chords in it that deviate from the key signature. Maj7 chords where there should be dom 7th. Minor chords where the key calls for a major. Dom 7ths were the key would otherwise indicate a maj7. Altered chords and the list goes on.

If you just try to home in on what key your in you'll likely miss something. That's when you'll really end up sounding progressive!:laugh2: If you explore each chord and apply melodic motifs against them in turn by using their related families of scales/modes then you're not likely to sound very progressive at all unless you try to. But you will be guaranteed that you won't get any unexpected curves thrown at you.

Previously, you strongly encouraged the study of what has already been played in terms of learning and knowing the standard chord progressions of blues, jazz, pop. Chord progressions are established by the key, right? You been talking about ignoring the key in order to fully explore what can be played over a chord. But, it almost sounds like you may be suggesting that one forget the standard chord progressions as well. That's bit of an extrapolation. But, writing songs without a key signature sure suggests that kind of thought.

 

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

If I tell you to play a standard (not to compose) then the chords will have already been provided for you by the composer. True? But let's say the chords that the composer has given you don't all fit the key signature that the composer has indicated. Here is an extreme example but it presents some of the problems that you can come across even in much simpler progressions. I focused on this particular progression because it raises the issues rather quickly.

The tune is in the key of B:

|Bmaj7 D7| Gmaj7 Bb7| Ebmaj7| Am7 D7| Gmaj7 Bb7|

| Ebmaj7 Emaj7b5/F#| Eb7sus/B ...

The key signature that the composer has given you just got shot to hell! Was it because of something you did? No! But If I say take a solo then you have to deal with it! I suggest that you don't deal with it by trying to play everything in the key of B! LOL!

After the second beat of the first measure this tune has already changed to the key of G! After the sencond beat of the second measure it changed again to Eb. And the process goes on! Now let me ask are you still thinking in B? LOL! You can try telling the rest of the band that this song shouldn't exist because none of the chords are in B, but I doubt that they will listen!

By improvising on the chords and not the key signature you will better be able to keep up. If you play according to the key signature then you'll be playing sour notes as soon as you get past the second beat of the song. The idea is to be able to keep up with the chord changes. Songs often change keys from the original key singnature. By improvising on the chords you are guaranteed to be in the "actual correct key" reguardless of what you may have (erroneously) thought the right key was!

LOL! The first chord in a Bb Blues is in the key of Eb! LOL!

 

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Chord progressions are established by the key, right?

No! You are discounting modulation. Very seldom do you come across a progression that is wholey in a single key for long. Quite often from a compositional standpoint the whole purpose of the progression is to find a way to get to another key. Sometimes this is done methodically and other times it done abruptly. You think maybe that's why they call it a progression? Cuz it's supposed to go somewhere? If you are a player that's trying to perform then the key signature won't help you for long! You have to find other methods to keep up.

You been talking about ignoring the key in order to fully explore what can be played over a chord. But, it almost sounds like you may be suggesting that one forget the standard chord progressions as well. That's bit of an extrapolation. But, writing songs without a key signature sure suggests that kind of thought.

When you compose do what you want. When you play (standards) everything has already been laid out for you. When I speak of playing/exploring the chords my focus is mainly on improvisation against chords that the composer has already given you to play. Although, the same method can be great for your compositional skills if you come with a progression you like but can't think of a cool melody!

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

No! You are discounting modulation. Very seldom do you come across a progression that is wholey in a single key for long. Quite often from a compositional standpoint the whole purpose of the progression is to find a way to get to another key. Sometimes this is done methodically and other times it done abruptly. You think maybe that's why they call it a progression? Cuz it's supposed to go somewhere? If you are a player that's trying to perform then the key signature won't help you for long! You have to find other methods to keep up.

When you compose do what you want. When you play (standards) everything has already been laid out for you. When I speak of playing/exploring the chords my focus is mainly on improvisation against chords that the composer has already given you to play. Although, the same method can be great for your compositional skills if you come with a progression you like but think of a cool melody!

Modulation? Is modulation, Changing keys, a jazz concept? How commonly does that occur in rock, blues, and jazz. Songs that have a bridge, is that a modulation? Did the classical composers utilize modulation? I'm guessiing that most modern music uses a single key, because most popular music uses standard progression.

Now that I think about it a bit more, and realize I haven't been able to see the forest because of the trees, I have heard others say let the chord inform you about what to play.

BTW, I've started watching the Ken Burns Jazz documentary. A local video store has it. It's not hugely technical, but it does a great job of highlighting the cultural issues that drove the creation and development of blues and jazz as well as the artist that were it's greatest influences. I've been enjoying it. It's definitely worth the time to watch.

As a result, I'm thinking a study of Louis Armstrong and song great jazz clarinet stuff would be worthwhile. They have such a great vibe, feel, and phrasing.

 

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Yes, Classical music modulates. It's been decades since I analyzed any Mozart! They even had strict rules governing which keys they could modulate to! But if you listen closely to some Bach you can see where it almost can sound like Bebop at times! LOL!

Yes, pop music modulates all the time. Anytime you find a chord in a tune that doesn't match the key signature, it can be "interpreted" as a temporary modulation to another key. That's just one way of looking at it. It's true that most of the serious key changing goes on at the bridge. But you can still find key changes just about anywhere in pop music depending on which tune you're litening to.

If a tune is in C and you come across a D7 you can look at it from different perspectives. One person might say its a II7 chord instead of a IIm7. That concept assumes that modulation has not occured. People who would analyze the situation in that manner would say that they needed more evidence of a key change than just 1 out of place dom 7th chord. They would account for it by using accidentals and continue to conceptualize being in the original key.

Another person might say that the D7 in actually the dom 7th (V7) chord in the key of G. This concept opens up some interesting possibilities once you realize that for a brief moment all of the modes of G maj are available to you. If you're are taking a solo or trying to put together a melody against that D7 this concept can help generate ideas. Although, in my example the key of C and G are probably too closely related to knock somebody's socks off. But the more remotely the two keys are related, the more striking the effect!

Rock can be even worse than Jazz! Many rock jams play power chords based on simple major and minor triads. They often don't play 7ths. This means that a "composer" (as in song writer) can interpret any maj triad to be used as the V chord in a different key and just go there!

Many times you'll find that a composer has used a V chord as a bridge to get to another key. Jazz uses the II-V-I as a common vehicle to move between keys. Take Fmaj7 | Emin7 A7 | Dmaj7. From Fmaj to Dmaj just like that! Check this one out. F#7 | Bdim | G7. Thats from the key of Bmaj to Cmaj. The V7 (F#7) chord in Bmaj goes to the VII (Bdim) in C to the V7 chord in C (G7). And yes! There are blues progressions that are like this before you even ask! Every blues progression isn't Plain Jane! LOL!

 

[hareek]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

what is this "Frank Gambale DVD that gets such good reviews"??? I've been playing for 11 years and consider myself beginner when it comes to theory, but more advanced when it comes to playing. I'm always looking for good DVD's to learn more. Is this one worth checking out in my case?

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

what is this "Frank Gambale DVD that gets such good reviews"??? I've been playing for 11 years and consider myself beginner when it comes to theory, but more advanced when it comes to playing. I'm always looking for good DVD's to learn more. Is this one worth checking out in my case?

This Thread may help you decide

 

[hareek]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

This Thread may help you decide

interesting. sounds intimidating but I think I'm gonna get it. thanks a lot guys.

 

[noth]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I never play anything that I don't hear in my head.

That's all I play: what I hear.

If I don't hear it, I don't play it.

Otherwise, it's my fingers doing the playing and not me.

I don't think of my fingers as being particularly soulful or creative...I just want them to do what I tell them to do and not "think" for themselves!

I hear so many guys whos fingers are just playing patterns...over and over.

Lew

I believe it's my favorite guitarist that said: "I never played a lick I couldn't sing in my head" - Leslie West.

Amen,
Noth

 

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Ever wonder why some people can sing and other's can't. It's because some people have superb ears and others are totally tone deaf! Playing by ear is not for everyone! To really pull it off your ear has to range from good to exceptional. From what I can see, there are people with exceptional ears that can hear all sorts of cool licks no matter how complicated the music gets. People with merely good ears often end up hearing old washed up cliche' licks over very simple music. It's more of a limitation to them than a benefit! LOL!

It's sorta like saying every basketball player should dunk! Well, I'm sorry! I'm 5'8" so I think I'll ignore your advise and work on my jump shot! Thank you very much! LOL!

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

How does one help the tone deaf guitar player?

 

[Rainmaker]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

There's ear training software out there which can make the the process simple and practical.

!

 

[Marcel]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I can't remember what famous player said this , but it really hits home for me....."learn everything you can, then forget about it and just play." I believe in this because music isn't a recipe or chemical formula..... it's nice to know all the ingredients, it's also nice to mix them up into your own creation.

how true!

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I saw where it was said about Charlie Parker, that Bird's genius, the thing that he brought to jazz was his ability to improvize. They said he had the ability to take any note in the scale over the chord being played and he could make any note fit.

How do you do that? Is it simply a matter of surrounding that note or any note with R-3-5 tones from the local chord?

If your improvizing, and you know what's coming up, do you think in terms of notes because you've memorized the notes of all the scales? Or do you know where the R-3-5-7 tones are via the scale boxes on the fretboard? Or Do you know the formula for every scale and mode, and you can simply work out the scale you need from any starting note? or It's second nature to you now and you just do it, pure experience has taught you? You let your ears be your guide. you know what notes need to be played and your hands and ears know where they are?

From high school I can figure out the sine, cosine and tanget of the 30, 60 right triangle. I haven't memorized the values but I remember the hypotenuse one side of the triangle has a length of 1, the other side is the square root of three and the hypotenuse is 2. I can visualize it. I'm inclined to use the same methodology by incorporating the scale box patterns, but the helps horizontally, I need a method for working vertically up and down the neck. I don't have a problem from the nut to the 5th fret, but from 7 to 12 I kinda get lost. It'll probably come in time as I play in that region more.

 

[tone4days]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

one way to bust out of ruts thinking up and down the neck (as opposed to across the neck in one position) is to limit yourself to playing on one string ... improvise against a chord progression (or an entire tune) this way ... you can make it easier on yourself to start by getting a progression in C major (or one of its modes) and improvise by choosing only from the notes C D E F G A and B ... and no bending more than a half step ... get the feel for the intervals in your ears ... do it on each string ... you can go back and do toher keys as you advance .. i like this because it kinda gives you 'wormholes' to slip between the positions you might already know (i think you call them boxes)

of course, onceyou get this under your fingers, you will be as facile at zipping about up and down as easily as back and forth ... will give you true 2-d freedom on the fretboard

good luck
t4d

 

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I saw where it was said about Charlie Parker, that Bird's genius, the thing that he brought to jazz was his ability to improvize. They said he had the ability to take any note in the scale over the chord being played and he could make any note fit.

Please bare with me!

From our earlier discussion, we have seen how the domain of any given dom7 chord is practically a chromatic scale. Surely all chord types can be viewed as having similar domain/scale family types. From these domains we can easily discover which modes are compatible with a given chord. The idea is cool because it reveals modes that people would not normally consider for a given chord. But knowing which notes to play is only one aspect of improvisation/composition.

Music, as traditionally defined is a combination of several elements. Namely, they include harmony, pitch and rhythm. Our discussion up to know has only dealt with pitch. Keep in mind that none of these elements are totally independent from one another. In this way rhythm and pitch are combined to create melody. Rhythm and harmony are also combined to form accompaniment.

It is the concept of rhythm when combined with pitch that gives us the tools with which we construct melodic ideas. It is within this context that we must begin to explore the idea of melodic motif. The art of creating motifs envolve the use of sequence or repetition of key elements of phrases among other things. We can simply call these restatements within melodic motifs. These restatements can either be literal or relative. A literal restatement would be to replay the motif (remember pitch combined with rhytm) verbatim. A figurative restatement would be to replay the motif but transpose its second occurance up or down by a certain interval - let's say a minor third just for grins. The second motif in the latter example therefore would not be an exact copy of the first. It quite often is even in a different modality than the one it was cloned from. The repetition can continue up or down in sequence if you like!

The next time you listen to some music see if you can pick out the use of this technique! Sometimes the motifs are repeated, but the pitches are not related! Rather only an underlying rhythmic motif is restated. Freeing up the improvisor or composer to use any pitches they choose in the restatement! In this instance the focus of the repetition therefore is on the rhythm rather than the pitch and rhythm. You see!

So what does this have to do with Parker being able to play any note against a chord! Well the motifs (rhythm and pitch) form a GROOVE! Once you have the listener captured in a GROOVE then you could play the friggin chromatic scale and nobody would care! As long as its GROOVIN!

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Just play! Establish a feel with the song and go with it. Just like that?! That's it. Alrighty then. I wonder if he visualized the notes on a musical staff, and just was genius enough that he didn't really have to think about what he was doing, he just played it.

T4D- Thanks for the reminder on the single string focus. Sometimes I sit down to do that, then the next thing I know I end up all over. I need to be a bit more disciplined and force myself to stick with that part of my practice. Thanks for the kind reminder.

I think the more I play, the better my ear gets. I've been playing the vocal lines to some Ray Charles tunes. This exercise is really a great help for ear training. I have an older Ray Charles, Brother Ray's Blues, he is fabulous. I know that's not a news flash. He's soul and he is blues. He's a musical phenomenon. Great stuff. There's a reason they call him genius. :laugh2: