Fretting about frets

[hydro]

So I took my '74 SG in for a setup and the guitar doc says "Your frets need work". Admittedly they are practically flat at this point. This guitar has been played a LOT since I got it in '98 and looked, er, "experienced" when I got her. He said something about leveling frets that involved sanding, grinding, bits, straightening.... I admit i am not a clever man, so most of it I didn't understand and now i am scared and confused. He said this might buy me a few years before a refret.

Can anyone explain this to me in terms that I am likely to understand? I felt like the guitar played great although I wondered about the frets sometimes. Will it still play well, or even better, when I get it back?

I trust the shop, it's not that - I just am nervous about my old girl...

 

[tc]

Re: Fretting about frets

It'll basically make for a better all around setup (which should make for a better playing guitar). I think what confused you was him saying they were "flat". If they were perfectly flat (or actually, matching the curve of the radius) then that would be ok, but frets don't wear down evenly. They get grooves where the strings are fretted and these are deeper than the wear from bending, causing slight valleys on the frets.

I'm guessing he means he will level the frets (basically sand them down) so they all match up in height, i.e., sanding so each individual fret doesn't have grooves anymore and also have each single fret be of the same height. This will allow for the action of the guitar to feel the same all over the fretboard and eliminate fret buzz (for example, if the lower frets are worn down but the higher ones aren't when you play notes near the nut fret buzz will be much more noticeable).

Eventually the frets will be so low they can't be leveled anymore and that's when the neck will need to be refretted with new fretwire.

At least that's what I understand from your post.

 

[Condemnedsoul]

Re: Fretting about frets

Around 1973, I bought a used Epiphone Casio. It has been played all of these years and has had more than several fret dressings and set ups. Finally the frets were measuring between 1/8 and 1/16 of an inch. It was getting hard to tune. It sounded like maulk, even with new strings.

Finally, I took it to a reputable repair man and had it refretted. He also did a complete set up. He included the small things like matching the bridge saddles to the finger board. I didn't want to do, but it needed to be done. The refret job ran $400.00. Mind you, this is with binding. Yes, it was expensive and worth every hard earned penny.

Even though, I have had a great deal of work done by the repairman, and he is a pro, I was still apprehensive about a complete refret on this guitar. It was a weight off my shoulders, the guitar played better than when it was new - [ or at least it seems that way] and it was set up specifically for me.

Do your self a favor and listen to the repairman.

 

[LReese]

Re: Fretting about frets

Around 1973, I bought a used Epiphone Casio. It has been played all of these years and has had more than several fret dressings and set ups. Finally the frets were measuring between 1/8 and 1/16 of an inch. It was getting hard to tune. It sounded like maulk, even with new strings.

Even though, I have had a great deal of work done by the repairman, and he is a pro, I was still apprehensive about a complete refret on this guitar. It was a weight off my shoulders, the guitar played better than when it was new - [ or at least it seems that way] and it was set up specifically for me.

Do your self a favor and listen to the repairman.

+1 to listening to the repairman. BTW - 1/16" is a pretty tall fret. 6100's are .057"ish

I had 4 guitars refretted last year. 2 were repair damage inflicted by yours truly. Each one came out like a dream.

 

[Condemnedsoul]

Re: Fretting about frets

Wasn't being scientific or accurate, was just guessing to answer the original post.

 

[CTN]

Re: Fretting about frets

a fret levelling is actually a fairly simple operation (that requires an experienced, practiced hand to do well) that can be described quite simply as reshaping the frets so they have the same kinda surface as when they were new.

there are several steps to it:

1) since there are grooves in the frets, and it is basically impossible to fill the grooves, we instead bring down the high spots down to the same level as the lowest spots. This is done by sanding, usually with a wide, flat file or sandpaper attached to a wide, flat beam. (flat to get all the frets down to the same height)

2) once they are levelled, it leaves flat areas on the top of the fret, like a plateau. For correct intonation fret to fret, the top of the fret needs to ideally come up to a point, like the top of a circle, or like a hill. So the frets are then filed with a "fret crowning" file, that is shaped to file off the edges of the plateau and leave a rounded top.

3) Once the re-crowning is done, the frets are most of the way there. All that's left is final shaping of the fret ends so they don't cut into your fingers while playing (can be done using a crowning file, or a small flat file, depends totally on the repair guy and what he prefers to use), and then taking off the tooling marks using successively finer grades of abrasives until you polish the frets to a smooth finish.

And done! Your frets are bright and shiny, ready to play and factory-fresh (possibly even better if your guy is good), albeit a bit shorter than they were on day 1.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Fretting about frets

To the OP, you should listen to your repair man. Just over a decade ago I had a 1977 Les Paul Custom where the original frets were worn to basically nothing. I had the guitar refretted and it was a 150% improvement in playability. In hindsight I maybe shouldn't have gone quite so large (6100), but it worked.

Recently my 2001 LP Standard started buzzing pretty badly due to a botched fret level a few years ago. Since the frets are quite low (also due to the botched level) I'm planning on having it fretted and plek'd in the near future. My issue is deciding on what fret wire to go with. Size-wise I'm a fan of 6150 or 6125, but I'm not sure if I should go stainless. I'm worried that the guitar will end up piercingly bright, but OTOH I love the playability of SS frets on Suhr guitars. Can anyone who has gone stainless on a guitar chime in?

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Fretting about frets

I haven't had a guitar refretted with stainless, but I owned a SS fretted Parker amd the guitar I am having built will have SS frets. They feel fantastic - to the point where I am considering refretting my three guitars with stainless, even though they don't NEED a refret.


B2D had his MusicMan refretted with stainless, I would recommend asking him about his experience.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Fretting about frets

Unless your frets are the equivilent of Benjamin Button, they will be getting lower and lower with time, until there's quite literally nothing left. This isn't even across the fret, nor are all frets worn evenly. At certain points the whole board needs work so they are all about the same - so you can set your guitar up to play well.

At some point they are too far gone. Both my 74 Custom and 80 Deluxe have been refretted. Its fair to say everyone who has had this done has not regretted it in the least.

 

[LReese]

Re: Fretting about frets

B2D had his MusicMan refretted with stainless, I would recommend asking him about his experience.

All 4 of mine were refretted with Stainless '6100' size. I don't think I would do a refret without going for stainless wire - except in the case of a really old instrument.

That being said, there is a way to fill in divots in standard fret wire if they are relatively minor through burnishing. Its not easy (more a case of a lot of rubbing with a hard piece of steel) but can sometimes be done.

 

[hydro]

Re: Fretting about frets

I guess one thing I don't understand about the process is that after it's done, (leveling) the frets are lower, so how do they compensate at the nut? (or do they?)

I also assume the fingerboard itself is not messed with when frets are leveled? I am trying to understand how all this grinding and sanding is done without ruining or scarring the fingerboard wood. Which is ebony, without binding, and is one of the best things about the guitar -

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I decided to have the work done, I'm just worried.

 

[CTN]

Re: Fretting about frets

simple.

the nut slots can be lowered if necessary.

The wood is normally masked off before even touching the frets with any tools. fretwork is done, then masking is taken off the wood and the whole thing is cleaned along with the frets. In the case of the levelling beam - it rides on the tops of the frets, not in between. same goes for the usage of a big file if that's what he's using. Then the fret crowning files and what not are only big enough to resurface the fret itself, and don't do anything to the wood.

Don't worry about it dude. If your repair guy is good, your guitar will come back feeling, sounding and playing like a million bucks. (or at least however much you spent to buy it :laughing: )

 

[aleclee]

Re: Fretting about frets

I've had a couple guitars refretted with stainless and now I wouldn't waste money on a nickel-silver refret. If I play a guitar enough to wear out the frets, I'll spend a little more for stainless so I shouldn't ever need to refret again.

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: Fretting about frets

Don't worry about it dude. If your repair guy is good, your guitar will come back feeling, sounding and playing like a million bucks.

This is pretty much it. A good fret job will improve the playability tremendously.

 

[ThunderLizard]

Re: Fretting about frets

Unless there is a problem with the wood under the frets the wood isn't even touched. Occasionally if the neck is warped, the frets will be removed and the fingerboard is leveled with a long beam sander to level the entire thing at once. This is generally rare though. I am glad you are getting the frets done. I also would recommend going with stainless steel frets if they will do them as they will last as long as you have the guitar.

I currently have a guitar and a bass that need a total refret. I will be doing it myself (not recommended for the novice) with stainless steel.

 

[LReese]

Re: Fretting about frets

Funny thing happened with one of mine. When I got it, it had a shoddy refret job.

When my tech inspected it, he noticed one side was a little off - like someone used a radius block and was not too careful keeping it straight. He wound up building up the board around 4 or 5 frets with Ebony dust and super glue. Goes to show you can build up also if need be.

The 2 Maple necks I had done didn't even need a refinish. A Martin I had refretted (BTW EVO is also a fine choice) only had a hump sanded and minimal truing - when dry you can see where it was sanded.

 

[Oinkus]

Re: Fretting about frets

A really good luthier doing a refret will be pricier but find one and do it. Get some big fat (wide and tall) stainless steel frets and you will be the happiest camper in the park. I had my 81 Les Paul Custom done a few years ago and it was a life changing experience. Took the nubs off the binding and extended the frets , planed the fretboard to remove bad wood on it. No longer has the old style Gibson top cut off flat frets which is completely different feel but with SS it lasts FOREVER ! Finished done never again to be worked on. I have been using same luthier for 20+ years so I have no issues there , but generally Guitar Center is not the place to go for any kind of work. You really want a Master Luthier that is world class I can tell you where to send it but that is a whole different scary process. Just my 2 cents feel free to deride me.

 

[vinta9e]

Re: Fretting about frets

Make absolutely sure your repair guy does top notch fretwork. Other than that, don't fret it, refret it.

 

[hydro]

Re: Fretting about frets

I trust my local shop for this job, they have always done good work for me. For a full re-fret down the road, I might try to wait for one of the very best in town. H-town has some really good luthiers but there's always a wait.

I haven't heard about stainless-steel frets before. Do they use those on the newer Gibsons, for example? I tend to not care for a brighter sound so if they actually do brighten the guitar, they may not be for me.

 

[Oinkus]

Re: Fretting about frets

Marginally if at all to most ears , I have them on traditionally bright guitars and unless you have a really well tuned ear the change is pretty small. I am a darker kind of pickup guy too but the biggest part about stainless steel frets is it is the last fret job you will ever have on that guitar period endofstory. If you are a serious player you can ruin soft nickel frets in no time at all. Wouldn't bother getting it cleaned up just do the total refret and save your money.