G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

[some_dude]

I'm looking to experiment a bit, but I don't know what direction to go. I currently have a cab loaded with V30s, and I like the tone of them, but I wouldn't mind running something less efficient so that I can push the amp just a little bit harder.

The amp is an Electric Amp loaded with EL34s. If you don't know the amp, think old school Orange with a bit more gain.

Anyway, here's what I'm looking at;

G12M - At 96db it's the least efficient of the ones I'm looking at. I've read that it's very midrange focused, which is good, but it also tended to sound pretty dark with old school amps. I'm a little concerned about it's lack of bottom end and afraid that'll it'll give me a honkey midrange with little to no bottom end thump when doing rhythm work.

G12H (75Hz cone) - At around 99db this is only slightly less than the V30, but I've read that it doesn't have that big midrange spike that makes the V30 sound so loud. I've read that they're a good all around speaker, but that they can sound a little bright/scooped. I want to cut through, and I don't want a knife in the ear.

G12H (55Hz cone) - At around 98db it's a little less yet than the 75Hz version. I've read that this has a stronger bottom end than the 75Hz version, with an emphasis on the lower mids. I'm a little concerned that this speaker may be muddy and/or not cut that well


Anyway... if anyone can add their thoughts, or pick apart my comments it'd be appreciated.

What I'm looking for is a thick, solid, rhythm tone that crunches nice and you can feel in your gut. No mud, no ice pick, sounds good both clean, fuzz and with heavy overdrive, and is able to cut through in a live mix.

 

[soundgardener75]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

I have the 70th Anniversary Heritage 30's that I ran parallel at 4 ohms on my Ampeg straight cab from a VL-501 head.

My amp may be a single channel one, but think Adam Jones Aenima-era rhythm tone. Pretty much what you described, save for the cleans, since I didn't bother trying playing clean tones with it.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Im curious where you are getting these numbers...

Celestion lists the non Heritage Greenback at 98db, the non Heritage G12H30(75hz) at 100db, the Heritage Greenback at 96 and the Heritage G12H0(55hz) at 100db...as a comparison a Vintage 3 is also 100db

If you're running Vintage 30's the only way to drop volume is to switch to Greenbacks or some other small magnet speaker, like a Greenback, G12T75 or a G1265 for example

So keep all that in mind but here is what I can tell you about the tone of each speaker.

The Greenbacks are a very muid focused tone and do lack bottom, IMO they have plenty of low end and 4 of them in a sealed back cab have more than enough but if you're really into lows then I think you'll be let down. They also have a nasty kind of ratty character to them when driven and some guys complain they they are too toppy. They will lower you're overall volume but there will be a pretty large tonal shift.

The regular G12H30 (75hz cone) is a great speaker has more lows and more highs than the Greenback whcih makes some guys call it scooped, not sure I hear it that way but everybody is different. They are cleaner than a Greenback but fuller IMO than a Vintage 30. If you want to make things interesting a G12H30 and a Vintage 30 mix works wonders for a lot of players.

The Heritage G12H30 (55hz cone) is truer to the original 60's G12H30 which was intended for use as a bass speaker...some Strat players of the time (Jimi comes to mine) often used the G12H30's because the extra low mids and lows made his Strat sound thicker. These speakers do have a lot of low mids and lows, good for some players bad for others.

One other sapeakers you didn't mention is the G1265 which is like a Greenback but lots warmer/smoother on top and a good bit cleaner. It has a large dustcap which rolls off some of thte high end and inturn makes the lows sound bigger. These are a lower db (same at a GB) and will help lower your volume if thats your only goal but again, there will be a big toinal shift.

 

[Rich_T]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

I'm using the non-heritage greenbacks (G12M-25) that come stock in the 1960ax cabs. I don't find that they lack low end, and that is with a 50watt JMP, which isn't exactly a bass monster, but they do break up a bit wierdly, which might not suit you.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

M magnet speakers do have decent lowend in closed back cabs. In open backed cabs they can lack bass and the bass can also be too loose.

The 55 hz cones don't really get muddy when used with the H magnets. The extra gauss of the larger magnets help keep the low end tight and focused.

For an M magnet speaker whith less db's, the afore mentioned G12-65 is a possibility, and the Heritage G12M20 has been found to be very good.

 

[some_dude]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Im curious where you are getting these numbers...

I pulled them off the Scumback site.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

I pulled them off the Scumback site.

Well, are you looking at Celestions or Scumbacks?

 

[J Moose]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

If you're running Vintage 30's the only way to drop volume is to switch to Greenbacks or some other small magnet speaker, like a Greenback, G12T75 or a G1265 for example

So keep all that in mind but here is what I can tell you about the tone of each speaker.

For the sake of comparison, how would you describe the V30?

Then I'll get to my next question... haha

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

For the sake of comparison, how would you describe the V30?
Then I'll get to my next question... haha

V30's are a great all around speaker...good for almost everything. Nice tight bass, good highs that are not over powering and solid enough mids for most players...

Folks often complain that they are harsh in the upper mids but I still think that most of the guys that have that issue don't or have never played out and never think about having to cut through a full band mix...

 

[some_dude]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Well, are you looking at Celestions or Scumbacks?

Either or. We're only talking 1db difference between the two. Let's not get hung up on the details and get back to what's important; the sound.

I'm kinda leaning towards the G12Ms. I wonder what a stack of them would sound like....

 

[J Moose]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

I recall years & years ago... switching from the stock '75s in my 1960a to V30's and greenbacks and though the 75s are very scooped... not looking at efficiency but ONLY what I heard, the Greenbacks & V30's were much louder since the mids are so much more prevalent.

Like you say... cuts through the mix better. Much fuller bottom end, and I hear the V30's as having more bottom then Green's... and the Greens as smoother on top & more 'ragged' overall.

Moving outside of Celestion, what else is groovy? I know we've talked about the Jensen C12's... Weber... and then there's all the Eminence stuff which I haven't tried much of.

How's a Cannabis Rex or Swamp Thing like next to a V30?

You know... what's the jumping off point?

I like a lot of things about the V30, but I'm also sorta beat on 'em. It's the coke classic... kinda generic but always good. What would have more bottom end? Fuller & maybe a little smoother...

My main grip with the V30 is that when I turn 'em up the low E goes away...

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Either or. We're only talking 1db difference between the two. Let's not get hung up on the details and get back to what's important; the sound.

I'm kinda leaning towards the G12Ms. I wonder what a stack of them would sound like....

The sound is also different between Scummies and Celestions. Lots of guys seem to dig the Scummies but there is no way a ceramic magnet speaker is worth $180 a pop.

Greenbacks...I love them, they are my fav Celestion FWIW. What do they sound?? I've never really spent much time with them with an amp like yours but there are loads of Greeenback tones from all over...Billy Gibbons, Jeff Beck, Steve Vai at various points in time, early (Pre BOG) Hendrix, Korn, Angus and Mal from AC/DC, Billy Corgan, Steve Stevens, Warren Haynes, etc...loads of guys use them. That might not help but what Im trying to get at is that they are far more versitile that some players owudl have you believe.

If you switch from V30's to GB's you will loose low end and the lows you have will not be as tight, the mids will be far more in your face and up front but the mids are way different...much more textured, almost muddy in a way and the highs due to the lowered low end will seem really up front but they are not brioght speakers to my ears...besides that you'll loose volume and they will break up a lot sooner.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

What would have more bottom end? Fuller & maybe a little smoother...

G12H30 or if you want max "bigness" a 55hz cone G12H30 like the Heritage series but those can be really overpowering in the lows unless you play clean to low/mid gain at max and lean on Fender guitars...high gain players and buckers lovers often feel like they have too many lows...

 

[jerryjg]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Yeah, many guys( and girls lol) who cannot get vintage G12m25 greenbacks ( the old "20's Van Halen used were the super exotic and expensive G12m20's) are going with the G12H30/V30 Combo. That seems to be the very best compromise these day.
Haveing said that, My buddy has two stacks loaded with vintage G12h30's. Thats the Hendrix speaker. Nuff said.

 

[J Moose]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

The bit you said about the Heritage G12H30 & Jimi is interesting... 'cause I listen to Band of Gypsies and the "thunk" off the cabinet is unreal!!! That's sort of what I'm going for... but hopefully w/o the $500 a pair price tag!

Several months ago I was in a shop that had a beat up JCM800 bass cab... straight... I wonder if it's still there...

Anyway... how about the Eminence drivers vs. Celestion?

Would the Cannibis Rex (or other) have a similar low-mid thing to the H30 heritage?

And are the H30 and H30 Heritage really that far off from each other?

BTW - That's a great description of the differences between the GB & V30's... exactly as I hear it.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Yeah, many guys( and girls lol) who cannot get vintage G12m25 greenbacks ( the old "20's Van Halen used were the super exotic and expensive G12m20's) are going with the G12H30/V30 Combo. That seems to be the very best compromise these day.
Haveing said that, My buddy has two stacks loaded with vintage G12h30's. Thats the Hendrix speaker. Nuff said.

A V30/H30 combo have litle in common with a set (or quad) of 20 watt greenbacks...

Also, it really depends on which vintage H30's he has...there are several different versions.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

Real deal pre rola 55hz H30's can bring $500 each!

That thunk you're talking about is great but can be overpowering if you use buckers...remember these were bass speakers to begin with.

A JCM800 Basscab won't have H30's...thats much too late for real H30's, unless I am way wrong...


Eminence vs. Celestion...just different IMO...some fo the new Eminence speakers are based on Celestions but none of them are exact IMHO...

Would the Cannibis Rex have a similar low-mid thing to the H30 heritage? No, not really...the Can Rex is darker/smokier than any paper cone speaker but they don't really have a bigger bottom

And are the H30 and H30 Heritage really that far off from each other? Yes, the G12H30 has a 75 hz cone, same cone a Greenback or Vintage 30 has, the Heritage G12H30 has the 55hz bass cone and is built much closer to Pre Rola specs...think about it like this, there is a Seth Lover and an Alnico II Pro, both are similar but still worlds apart at the same time.

BTW - That's a great description of the differences between the GB & V30's... exactly as I hear it. Thanks!

If you want that 55Hz cone H30 sound Scumback makes a clone of it, should be pretty close, Weber also makes a copy as well...I've not tried it yet myself but get it on good repots that it's quite nice as well and it's almost half what the Scummies cost...

 

[Bludave]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

I have a Marshall 4 12 AX with stock greenbacks and they are great speakers. I would not change them ever! Prior to this cab I was using a Peavey cab with 4 of the Shefeild 1290's. My understanding is the Shefeilds are Peaveys version of the G1275. I also have the Celestion G12 75's in a Marshall 900 50W combo (stock) and they sound good with this amp, but in all honesty the greenbacks blow everything else away. Part of it is the head (a Komet 60). With this head the greenbacks take on a character I have not heard with this before. Ireally love the greenbacks.

 

[jerryjg]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

The G12H30's my buddy has are not the old Salt & Pepper Cabinet Hendrix Pre-rola 55hz 500.00 ones.They are the late 70's basketwaeve cabinet stock g12h's, but still g12H's and still older and better sounding than any reissues-even the Scumbacks or Webers, even considering you are trying for the old Pre-Rola sound.Those are the probably best way to go right now if you know what your doing and how to buy them. Otherwise yeah,Grab some Celstion reissues or go Weber or if you have the extra money, Scumback; they will sound closer to waht your looking for , but not as good as the late 70's Celestions if that makes any sence.

 

[J Moose]

Re: G12M, G12H, Vintage 30

That thunk you're talking about is great but can be overpowering if you use buckers...remember these were bass speakers to begin with.

A JCM800 Basscab won't have H30's...thats much too late for real H30's, unless I am way wrong...

I was thinking about that cab mainly 'cause it would satisfy my craving for a straight front AND it would give me some 12" bass speakers to muck about with... If that's the key, and I can get in the ballpark...

:scratchch

I have a pair of Greenbacks sitting here that are between 10-15 years old. Gotta get a cab for them, haven't used 'em in a few years since the Rivera sounds better with the V30's... but still a bit thin. Bandmaster liked the GB's more but its' a wash there.

My time is spent more on humbuckers then singles, but it's probably 60/40 overall.