GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

[myatuck]

4:00 AM. Couldn't sleep. Prowling Craigslist. Ended up, 10:00 AM, with a mint Ibanez Artcore AS-73 with upgraded Grovers for $125. This is a fairly shallow body semi-hollow neck thru. Think same thickness as a Epi Les Paul semi but 25% bigger body. Truly gorgeous (transparent vintage cherry with creme binding from top to bottom including f holes), very well crafted in China.

Bought it without playing. Turns out it is a beautiful thing to play. I love everything about it. Really, this thing @$100 could end up being my favorite of 6 guitars.

The only thing is, as it plays, it is a somewhat generic PAF sound. Not bad, far better than my Epi Les Paul before I started working to change that, but still just another generic sounding guitar.

So, I'm gonna make a P90 out of it. Don't have a P90, been looking for a PRS P90 or a PRS I could turn into a P90 but this Ibanez really deserves a home, my home, and as a semi-hollow P90 it will fit right in.

Read up on humbucker sized P90's (one example, this article: http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20058-humbucker-sized-p-90-review-roundup ) and listed to a bunch of sound bites. Really like the Phat Cats sound bites, can't find a good sound bite for the Mean 90's. As I understand the original P90's used Alnico 5's, I like that the Mean 90's do as well and wonder about the 2's in the Phat Cats. Cost isn't the biggest issue, but at half the price, the Mean 90's get a lot of favorable press.

Anyone here have any thoughts as to these two pickups or other humbucker-sized P90's, or a semi-hollow P90?

Also interested to hear any thoughts regarding pots and caps as they relate, this thing doesn't have rear access so I only want to upgrade the wiring if it's gonna result in a noticeable gain.

Thanks

 

[austin]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I didn't like the Phat Cats in the guitar I tried them in. I thought the Mean 90 neck was very good though. The Mean 90 bridge was a bit weak for my tastes back then.
-
Austin

 

[saladin]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

Magnets are an easy swap!

 

[blueman335]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I didn't like the Phat Cats in the guitar I tried them in. I thought the Mean 90 neck was very good though. The Mean 90 bridge was a bit weak for my tastes back then.

That's what A2's bring to the party: lots of texture, lots of mids, not much treble, low output, and a looser low end. Not the kind of sound you normally associate with P-90's. With the right wind to accentuate the strengths and minimize the weaknesses, A2's can sound great in HB's, but I'm disappointed with them in Phat Cat's. For certain things in certain guitars they work well, but they're by no means a drop-in P-90 tone. Unfortunately, that's what most players expect them to be, and what almost every other HB-sized P-90 sounds like because they use A5's.

 

[austin]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

Magnets are an easy swap!

Not in Phat Cats!
-
Austin

 

[jake_xms3_punk]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

Mag swaps are a little trickier in phatcats but still easy. Just go slow and hold everything together when taking the cover off and try not to pull on the wire, also make sure the new magnets are repelling each other.

 

[trevorus]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I love Phat Cats in my G&L ASAT Deluxe, but I am not sure I'd love it so much in a LP type.

 

[Aceman]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I have never played any GFS Mean 90's, but I get the impression most guys dig them.

I also happen to really like the "P-90-esque" tone of Phat Cats.

And don't get too hung up on the magnet. Magnets can be deceiving, as can the res peak freq. (which is often related to, but not always, hotness/output)


The bottom line is you like the tone. A lot of guys, and I would venture to say most, really dig the Phat Cat. Rick (Blueman) appears to have a better ear for P90 tone than Seymour himself. I'm not sure based on Rick's teachings why Seymour even went with the A2's in there. Maybe Rick can explain his reasoning. So I suppose if you are an Uber-P90 snob, then my comment is that you won't be happy with anything but a Gibson P90.

On the other hand, if what you want is P90 tone out of that guitar, instead of hum buckers, you'll be more than happy with the Phat Cat. I have played a ton of Duncan P90's, and own a Vintage and Custom and love them both. I'm not a fan of the Hot 90's, but I see that there are certainly people who would dig them. I have played a ton of Gibson P90's over the years as well. I like them and honestly could care less on Gibson vs Duncan Vintage.

But I have seen and heard a GFS Mean90 loaded guitar and thought it was fantastic, and heard and played a couple of Phat Cat loaded guitars. They were both Les Pauls though…


That said - someone said you could change mags if you wanted to - which is a great option on any 335 vs a replacement.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

Good pickups whether they are p90s, strat, teles, humbuckers or whatever will not sound generic.
Listen to Wes MOntgomery....archtop with humbuckers. He doesn't sound generic.
Neither does Kenny Burrell, nor Joe Pass. All these guys have a distinctive sound.
BB King....Freddie King...the list goes on if you are looking at players of semis.
Anyways...my point is this. Just swapping to p90 style pickups will make your guitar sound like it has p90 style pickups.
It is no guarantee that the axe will sound any less generic. It is the interesting way you play it that will make it sound interesting.
That means you have plenty of options on choosing a set of pickups that will bring out the best in your playing.

btw....what amp are you running through?

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

The bottom line is you like the tone. A lot of guys, and I would venture to say most, really dig the Phat Cat. Rick (Blueman) appears to have a better ear for P90 tone than Seymour himself. I'm not sure based on Rick's teachings why Seymour even went with the A2's in there. Maybe Rick can explain his reasoning. So I suppose if you are an Uber-P90 snob, then my comment is that you won't be happy with anything but a Gibson P90.

Bob, the rest of your post was very helpful. Now, as someone who considers them self neutral in this ordeal, can you please stop tempting a ****-storm with personal attacks against Rick like this? It's really annoying for everyone else to have to read this pointless crap. If you two can't get along, just ignore each other. If one can't ignore the other, the other should be the bigger man and let it go.

OT: OP, have you considered the DiMarzio Bluesbucker? It's a pretty cool pickup that can sound like the mixed baby of a humbucker and a P90. I also recommend experimenting with series/split/parallel on it, as well as which direction the screw poles are closer to (it makes a difference with this particular pickup due to the design).

 

[AlexR]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

A lot of the issue with the humbucker sized p90 pickups is that they don't quite sound like a real p90. The shape of the coil is quite different, and its hard to get the nuances right. From all who have tried them, the Phat Cats are not really 100% p90 - they have their own thing going on.......if you like the clips and what they actually are doing this is good.

Zhangbucker has wrestled with this wind for a bit, trying to mimic the tone of a narrower but longer pickup. The wire geometry is all different, and putting a metal cover on it takes it further from the p90 tonally too.
He went for an A2/A5 mix for his wind, and a plastic top rather than metal cover. I can imagine with a metal cover he'd have to go all A5.
I have to say he's done really well. Open and with the snarl you want from p90's. I have the first set he managed to get right. Forbon cover and all A5 for mine......David knows his pickups and how to spec them for tone thats for sure.

 

[elduderino73]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

First post here. I traded an Epi LP Custom Pro for an Ibanez AS93...that had a Pearly Gates and a Seth Lover installed. Umm. YEAH! I jumped at that. Anyway, I've become accustomed to upgraded pots and PIO caps...all done in 50s wiring, and because of this I suspect I did not like the pup combo in that guitar having the crappy pots and wiring. I pulled the pups and installed them in other guitars. Having another AS93 I decided to make this new AS93 my P90 guitar. Enter the GFS Mean 90s. I've never played a real P90 so I have no first hand experience of how close the M90s get, but I can say I really like the tones I get out of it.

 

[Aceman]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

Bob, the rest of your post was very helpful. Now, as someone who considers them self neutral in this ordeal, can you please stop tempting a ****-storm with personal attacks against Rick like this? It's really annoying for everyone else to have to read this pointless crap. If you two can't get along, just ignore each other. If one can't ignore the other, the other should be the bigger man and let it go.

There was no attack there. Rick is the expert on P90's and mag swaps etc. I was asking what he thought about why Seymour used A2's instead of A5's. Rick has spoken often on the benefits of A5's in P90s and does so here. Rick is THE acknowledged guru on this topic.

Rick makes a great point about the Duncan product line being very deceptive that it will not be a P90 sound. I wanted to know what he thought about why Seymour used the A2's, since they really don't make a good P-90 sound. That's how you learn man - you ask.

Don't know what you are reading into it.

 

[Artie]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I have Dream-90's in my Iceman, and love 'em. Then again, I don't play out.

Iceman-in-the-house

 

[blueman335]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

There was no attack there. Rick is the expert on P90's and mag swaps etc. I was asking what he thought about why Seymour used A2's instead of A5's. Rick has spoken often on the benefits of A5's in P90s and does so here. Rick is THE acknowledged guru on this topic.

Rick makes a great point about the Duncan product line being very deceptive that it will not be a P90 sound. I wanted to know what he thought about why Seymour used the A2's, since they really don't make a good P-90 sound.

It's time to stop the crap Bob. Hounding members is what Duncan does not want going on here. Day after day of cheap shots at me, even other people are complaining to you about it. It's really getting tiresome. You have an axe to grind for whatever reason, this isn't the place for it. Knock it off or I'll get the administrators involved. Enough is enough.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

There was no attack there. Rick is the expert on P90's and mag swaps etc. I was asking what he thought about why Seymour used A2's instead of A5's. Rick has spoken often on the benefits of A5's in P90s and does so here. Rick is THE acknowledged guru on this topic.

Rick makes a great point about the Duncan product line being very deceptive that it will not be a P90 sound. I wanted to know what he thought about why Seymour used the A2's, since they really don't make a good P-90 sound. That's how you learn man - you ask.

Don't know what you are reading into it.

:bsflag:

We're not stupid. If you're going to openly act like a dick to someone, at least own up to it when you're called out.

 

[tubecrunch]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I'll pile on. Phat cats sound nothing like any other p90 I've played. They are spongy and have a unique mid curve that doesn't sound p90ish. I had mine in an lp. Didn't love it. Saw Ritchie sambora using a set in a Floyd rose guitar. Even on TV, with a totally different rig, I thought they sounded exactly like mine. Just an odd observation...

 

[blueman335]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

I'll pile on. Phat cats sound nothing like any other p90 I've played. They are spongy and have a unique mid curve that doesn't sound p90ish. I had mine in an lp. Didn't love it. Saw Ritchie sambora using a set in a Floyd rose guitar. Even on TV, with a totally different rig, I thought they sounded exactly like mine. Just an odd observation...

In previous discussions about Phat Cats, some of their fans have said they were never intended to sound like a P-90. If that's true, they did succeed. Problem is, some players buy them assuming they're going to get the famous cutting Gibson P-90 sound. Duncan was one of the early companies to develop a HB-sized P-90, and went in a different direction. It's a unique sound, nothing wrong with that. I think players would be better informed in their purchase decision if Duncan clarified that in their ad copy.

As a guy who at one time owned 10 Phat Cats (and pulled out every A2 in them and gave them away to forum members), I can say that there's a lot of potential in offering them with different magnets. Why not develop two or three models? There should certainly be an A5 model, as that's the classic sound most people are expecting when they buy a Phat Cat. Lindy Fralin is a huge A4 proponent and advocate for the virtues of that magnet; maybe an A4 model? Or A3? Different magnets in the neck than bridge? All kinds of potential.

 

[austin]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

When it comes to Phat Cats, you need to understand that they were designed for the Hamer Newport guitar by Jol Danzig and Seymour Duncan. They were meant to be the perfect pickups for that guitar and not "humbucker-sized P90's" per se (I absolutely love Hamers, but have never tried a Hamer Newport because I'm allergic to Bigsby's so I can't speak to how well they do there). So Seymour Duncan doesn't actually have a production pickup that is their "best shot at a humbucker-sized P90". I'm not sure why that is, but either way, there are tons of Non-Seymour Duncan humbucker-sized P90's out there to try.
-
Austin

 

[myatuck]

Re: GFS Mean 90's or Phat Cats or some other humbucker-sized P90?

1. Thank you for the comments. They have been most helpful.

2. I'm new, I don't want to get in the middle of anything, but I didn't ascribe anything unpleasant to that post regarding the decision to use A2's in the PhatCat. That observation is based on the words of that one post, not any historical context.

3. If I was to make the change today, I'd do the Mean 90's based on cost, if I didn't like them swapping them out would cost less than swapping out PhatCats or a boutique set.

4. As to the question regarding which amp I use, I'm lucky to have several, digital and tube. Name brand, smaller and larger, no modeling to speak of, and anything I post is based on playing the guitar through all those amps. The one thing I don't have is anything vintage, although I'd like to explore that avenue down the road a bit. For example, there's a Vintage '82 Marshall JCM800 4104 on the local Craigslist right now, a really, really nice one. And, I don't have anything that even pretends to do Marshall, but $1700 for a vintage piece of electrical gear is just more crazy than I want to be right now.

5. It will be a couple of weeks, or three, but I will post results. As I write this, I'm waiting on FedEx to drop off a set of Seth Lovers for my Epi Les Paul. I had already started down the path of upgrading/fixing the sound on that guitar before I stumbled onto this Ibanez. Had I not, I might have taken a different course because this thing (the AS-73), as is, really hits a sweet spot for me (something which the ELP in stock form never came close to doing) and I kinda hate messing with it. So, I'm gonna finish up the ELP then spend some time comparing the two before making a final decision. If the Ibanez continues to hold its own as is, I'll buy something else to satisfy the P90 itch.

Again, thanks, be back soon.