Gibson "Quality"

[JeffB]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

We´re not saying the luthier sucks...were asking if he bought the guiotar BRAND New, from a licensed Gibson dealer....

Because if he didn´t, especially if it was used, it´s very possible the guitar had a previous repair due to negligence on the original owner´s part

Seeing as he bought it Used, and Gibsons finishes are usually VERY thin (not very thick as the luthier noted) something is amiss....

And as far as what guitars should cost: We´re still talking about a USA made guitar here, where real luthiers spend real time building them.... DO you guys really think People with my kind of knowledge and skill are worth ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? Because that´s what you´re doing, you´re taking wood and hardware costs, completely disregarding assembly, sanding , finishing and such (because, as was stated in another thread, "we can do all of that ourselves").... this mindset is part of the main reason that USA made guitars are declining in quality, because 30 years ago people also thought that 15$ an hour was too much for people that starved for 3 years to learn the trade...

In other words: When I´m repairing your guitar I´m allowed to earn money (buit please, under no circumstances enought to pay the rent), and when I´m building one for you I´m supposed to do it for FREE?

And people still wonder why EVERYTHING these days is made outside the US and is Generally Crap?? Because YOU`RE not willing to pay someone 10$ an hour to produce a quality product, even though you as a worker feel that YOU earn 10$ an hour to produce even less of a product??? Why in HELL should a Luthier be forced to build guitars for LESS THAN HIS OWN COST (800$ is a ****ing joke people, period.), essentially paying you so that he can buiild an axe for you, when the douchebag at McBull**** gets minimum wage for spitting on your patty and wiping his ass with the bun? Come back to reality, dudes....

People have been saying this for 30 years, and it´s constantly gotten worse... Now that it´s starting to peak, all the blame goes to the companies...Not the consumer who in his quest for instant, cheap gratification made absolutely no thoughts as to the long term repercussions of his actions, even though he had been warned time and time again.....

MAN, do threads like this piss me off, because they show just how little people actually care about anything but their own well being.....

BRAVO!

Great post Zerb.

 

[FretFire]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

well, yes, i knew for sure it would take more time, as explained by the things you mentioned in the post above....but im wondering if it all adds up to being TWICE as much as the fender.....again, bring up the question, is it justified?

I'll say this, strats and teles were DESIGNED to be quick and cheap to put together. It might not come out to be exactly twice the work or cost, but there's probably a significant difference.

 

[flank]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

Thats a load of crap too. Yes I think the materials that Fender builds with are less expensive. Have Fender build you a Mahogany body with carved maple top, set neck, ebony fretboard and giant block MOP inlays and all the binding there is on a custom and tell me how much it costs. Maybe it will cost a little less. But when you talk about strats are they not Maple or Alder bodies? bolt-ons? Carved maple tops? Mahogany anywhere? I know Jackon guitars come in line with a lot of Gibson type guitars and aside from the neck thru construction i think Jacksons are below Gibson in quality. Don't get me wrong Jackson builds great guitars, I've owned a few. But when they build them out of mahogany and go to town on them like Gibson does a custom their price is through the roof as well. Cheaper woods can make all the difference in the world. A freakin' '56 Strat Relic retails for $2500 the same price as a new LP Custom. It is all in the craftsmanship and materials. You compare a lame-o American Strat Standard to a LP Custom is like comparing a Grand Prix to a Coupe DeVille.

Quality luthiers deserve fair market value like anyone else. Quality building materials also cost and theres no reason anyone should have to build or sell without money for their time and effort.

If you don't like it stick with your Jap Ibanez and Jacksons and crappy Schecters. Buy a strat they're ugly as sin, have nickle and dime store parts on them but theyre cheap...

i have an american strat with seymour duncan pickups......thank you sir

and im not comparing the two guitars..... nor am i saying its a les paul custom......if you want to make the comparison fair....how about American Standard Strat, and a Les Paul Standard

i dont think that the les paul should be priced the same as an american strat, it obviously takes more work to make them, and more materials...... but does it all add up to needing to be basically TWICE the price? I know Gibson can make great guitars, but some of them are not great, how do you explain that? should i pay top dollar for a guitar, top dollar for those materials, top dollar for a luthier to build it, and get a not-entirely-GREAT guitar?

 

[H8Red442]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

i dont think that the les paul should be priced the same as an american strat, it obviously takes more work to make them, and more materials...... but does it all add up to needing to be basically TWICE the price? I know Gibson can make great guitars, but some of them are not great, how do you explain that? should i pay top dollar for a guitar, top dollar for those materials, top dollar for a luthier to build it, and get a not-entirely-GREAT guitar?

You're still not get the same build and building materials. Just because the name says Standard does not imply they are built to the exact same specs. Go buy a LP Studio if you want comparible build. You'll still end up with a mahogany body and neck on a Gibson.

 

[FretFire]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

i have an american strat with seymour duncan pickups......thank you sir

and im not comparing the two guitars..... nor am i saying its a les paul custom......if you want to make the comparison fair....how about American Standard Strat, and a Les Paul Standard

i dont think that the les paul should be priced the same as an american strat, it obviously takes more work to make them, and more materials...... but does it all add up to needing to be basically TWICE the price? I know Gibson can make great guitars, but some of them are not great, how do you explain that? should i pay top dollar for a guitar, top dollar for those materials, top dollar for a luthier to build it, and get a not-entirely-GREAT guitar?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this fixation on whether it has to be twice the cost or not. Yes I'm sure Gibson adds a bit for the name on the headstock, but if you don't think Fender does the same thing you're mistaken. Or Jackson, or PRS, or Ibanez, or any other bigger player in the guitar industry. Many people believe that they ARE getting an entirely great guitar for their money, but you have to remember these are mass produced instruments. There is bound to be a bad one here and there, that's where the buyer has to make the effort to go shopping and find the one that suits them the best.

And yes, there's always the alternative of taking your money to a small custom builder. You'll pretty much be guaranteed to get a better quality guitar than most things out there today (at least when talking about makers like Thorn, McNaught, Driskill, etc) but you will be paying a lot more than you will for an LP Standard, plus you'll have to wait for it vs. taking it home off the shelf. These are the kinds of things you need to consider when deciding how to spend your money.

 

[flank]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

You're still not get the same build and building materials. Just because the name says Standard does not imply they are built to the exact same specs. Go buy a LP Studio if you want comparible build. You'll still end up with a mahogany body and neck on a Gibson.

yes i know that...i dont want to compare the two guitars, they are too different

the thing is, i wouldnt even pay the price that American Strats are set at, i think it is too much.... definately used is the way to go i guess...... i

 

[JeffB]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

Compared to a Strat you gotta figure that there is 1/2 again more material cost...

More expensive grade of wood in the body and neck
Plus the sheer extra amount of wood.. thicker body & neck...
Oh and a carved flame maple top vs. a plain jane piece of alder that probably will have a solid finish and never show any grain....

Then consider the nitro finish (debatable as to what is*better*, but def more expensive/labor intensive)...

Then the binding work on the body and neck.....

Bolt on neck vs gluing it in. getting angle right....cure/dry times...

More expensive pups to make in general (more magnet, more coils, more wire, etc)

Then consider all the extra labor involved in just those few extra things....binding alone...especially the neck binding is a PITA...

POS plastic case (functional, yes) for the Am Std strat vs. a nice Gibson case

Easy to see why it would cost twice as much as Strat (not knocking a Strat, love em..jes pointing out the obvious)

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

And as far as what guitars should cost: We´re still talking about a USA made guitar here, where real luthiers spend real time building them.... DO you guys really think People with my kind of knowledge and skill are worth ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? Because that´s what you´re doing, you´re taking wood and hardware costs, completely disregarding assembly, sanding , finishing and such (because, as was stated in another thread, "we can do all of that ourselves").... this mindset is part of the main reason that USA made guitars are declining in quality, because 30 years ago people also thought that 15$ an hour was too much for people that starved for 3 years to learn the trade...

In other words: When I´m repairing your guitar I´m allowed to earn money (buit please, under no circumstances enought to pay the rent), and when I´m building one for you I´m supposed to do it for FREE?

And people still wonder why EVERYTHING these days is made outside the US and is Generally Crap?? Because YOU`RE not willing to pay someone 10$ an hour to produce a quality product, even though you as a worker feel that YOU earn 10$ an hour to produce even less of a product??? Why in HELL should a Luthier be forced to build guitars for LESS THAN HIS OWN COST (800$ is a ****ing joke people, period.),

Preach it brother!

essentially paying you so that he can buiild an axe for you, when the douchebag at McBull**** gets minimum wage for spitting on your patty and wiping his ass with the bun? Come back to reality, dudes....

I like this part

People have been saying this for 30 years, and it´s constantly gotten worse... Now that it´s starting to peak, all the blame goes to the companies...Not the consumer who in his quest for instant, cheap gratification made absolutely no thoughts as to the long term repercussions of his actions, even though he had been warned time and time again.....

MAN, do threads like this piss me off, because they show just how little people actually care about anything but their own well being.....

AMEN!

<to be continued>

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

To address the cost difference between Gibson, PRS, Jackson, Heritage, and every other US guitar not made with 2 types of wood, and slapped together.

I do not like current era Gibson's. I have an old 330, and EB-0, I will one day inherit a 69 LP, however I have no current era Gibsons. Do a search you'll see from my posts I am SERIOUSLY at odds with this company.

I will use a LP standard plain top and compare it to a American Series. The American deluxe would probably be a better comparison, but since most of us have the American series I'm going to use it. No remember that glue takes hours-days to thoroughly dry.

The LP will have a maple top----------The Strat will have a single wood body
It will be carved----------------------- Less Time
It will be glued

The body will have binding------------ No body Binding
A niche will be carved------------------Less Time
It will be glued

The LP will have a set neck------------The strat will have a bolt on neck
It will be glued-------------------------Less Time

The LP will have a rosewood board-----The Strat will have a single neck wood
It will be glued-------------------------Less Time

The LP will have a headstock veneer----Single neck wood
It will be glued-------------------------Less Time

The LP will have neck binding-----------No binding
It will be glued--------------------------Less Time


So if the saying "Time is money" is true, how much money did you save with the strat? This doesn't even deal with wood grades or the price of mahogany, versus alder, ash, or poplar.

I love Strats, I love Teles....by golly I love LP's, SG's and 335's. I will be the first to admit that strats and teles are very special guitars as well, but they are not nearly as labor intensive as a LP. Remember Leo was making a guitar/s that could be produced quickly, and produced by people who needed very little training.

Now my guess is that the people at the Fender factory make less than those at the Gibson Factories, but not too much less, and the only reason I will make that concession is because of the pricepoint.

Luke

 

[Bludave]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

Gibson typically uses woods that have lesser quality grains for instruments that will be finished in solid colors. I have assisted stripping many Gibson guitars to be refinished. I have never ever seen any filler aside from small amounts around a neck joint on ANY Gibson guitar. Tha looks like a repair that was covered up to me. I could be wrong, but I agree that does not look like it came from the factory that way.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

The better question to ask yourself regarding the strat is this:

MIM Strat $350
MIA Strat $899

Does an American Strat really need to cost 2-3 x's as much as a MIM Strat? The main bodies are now alder on both. One has 21 frets and one has 22. A few hardware upgrades and electronic upgrades on the MIA's. Does that equal 2-3 x's the cost? I would bet you every dollar that I had the it cost's Fender MAYBE $100 extra dollars to build a MIA. The only real difference is where they are assembled.

How much is Fender charging for the name on the headstock now?

Are Gibsons expensive...yes. Are they overpriced? Not as long as they keep selling them at the rate they do. Do they need to address quality control issues...yes. There are some fairly simple things they could do in my opinion that would make all of the complaints go away. Take some time on the frets...nicely level, dress and roll the edges. Make sure there are no real finish issues, or binding issues, and cut a decent nut. Outside of that, what are we really complaining about?

 

[flank]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

The better question to ask yourself regarding the strat is this:

Does an American Strat really need to cost 2-3 x's as much as a MIM Strat? The main bodies are now alder on both. One has 21 frets and one has 22. A few hardware upgrades and electronic upgrades on the MIA's. Does that equal 2-3 x's the cost? I would bet you every dollar that I had the it cost's Fender MAYBE $100 extra dollars to build a MIA. The only real difference is where they are assembled.

How much is Fender charging for the name on the headstock now?

Are Gibsons expensive...yes. Are they overpriced? Not as long as they keep selling them at the rate they do. Do they need to address quality control issues...yes. There are some fairly simple things they could do in my opinion that would make all of the complaints go away. Take some time on the frets...nicely level, dress and roll the edges. Make sure there are no real finish issues, or binding issues, and cut a decent nut. Outside of that, what are we really complaining about?

ive already stated i wouldnt pay the price for a new american strat either, its too much

but if any of you go back and read my posts, i was asking a question, not disproving anyone......so, i guess, after all, the price is justified on a Gibson.....but you can damn well bet i aint gonna pay it :laugh2: :dance:

 

[FretFire]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

ive already stated i wouldnt pay the price for a new american strat either, its too much

but if any of you go back and read my posts, i was asking a question, not disproving anyone......so, i guess, after all, the price is justified on a Gibson.....but you can damn well bet i aint gonna pay it :laugh2: :dance:

No worries bro, I don't think anyone was getting worked up, just trying to answer ya .

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

I´m glad that the discussion has turned in the way it has

One thing to add here at this point, though...

....Or Jackson, or PRS, or Ibanez, or any other bigger player in the guitar industry. Many people believe that they ARE getting an entirely great guitar for their money, but you have to remember these are mass produced instruments. .....

While I totally understand your post, as has been stated many times, USA Jacksons are not in any way "mass produced" but still built by hand by the same people that build the custom shop guitars... The only difference is that they´re doing the work in batches of 12 instead of singly to one guitar (in other words , doing 12 fretjobs instead of a fretjob ... this is why the production models are "rearranged" every few years to reflect the most common custom shop orders (SL2H, SL2MAH and SL1T, or a new rhoads model that´s expected to be unveiled at NAMM, or the DK-1 now being 24 frets HH w/EMGs instead of 22 frets HSS and Duncans, just as a few examples)...Hence the line designation "USA Select". In other words, each USA Jackson regardless of USA Select or Custom Shop is still a truely handmade instrument.. This appllies to the USA Charvels as well, BTW

 

[FretFire]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

While I totally understand your post, as has been stated many times, USA Jacksons are not in any way "mass produced" but still built by hand by the same people that build the custom shop guitars...

I was referring to Gibson guitars, though I know my post was unclear in that respect. And yes I know that Gibson still has some of the build process done by hand on several of their models.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

No prob, bro.. Just wanted to make sure nobody got any wrong ideas :beerchug:

 

[FretFire]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

No prob, bro.. Just wanted to make sure nobody got any wrong ideas :beerchug:

:bigthumb:

 

[MikeRocker]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

If some of you are saying that Gibson guitars are not overpriced, how is it that Heritage can make what is essentially a Gibson guitar or arguably much higher quality for significantly less? They are a smaller operation, and it probably costs them significantly more to make each instrument than it does Gibson. My first electric, which I got about 16 years ago, was a Gibson Les Paul Custom, which I got new with a case from the store for $899. Yes, you read that correctly. The dealer was looking to move some stock to make way for new guitars. That same guitar now lists for $4559 and sells for $2999 according to Musician's Friend. I'm sorry if this is offensive to some, but that is OVERPRICED. The raw materials and labor just do not justify that price point. It's a free country, and they can charge what they will, but the prices + corporate tactics (eliminating small dealers; no NAMM admittance [or summer NAMM presence]; no pictures of actual instruments on the web, only Gibson's stock photos, etc.) + poor quality control have lost me as a customer. I've said it before, I'll say it again - Gibson is currently in their CBS era. Poor old Orville is undoubtedly rolling over in his grave. If they ever have a major corporate overhaul and come down to reality, I'll consider being a cutomer again, 'til then hell no. No dentist guitars for me. They're on there way into bad trouble, and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[brisk]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

Jerry Jerry Jerry!

 

[FretFire]

Re: Gibson "Quality"

If some of you are saying that Gibson guitars are not overpriced, how is it that Heritage can make what is essentially a Gibson guitar or arguably much higher quality for significantly less? They are a smaller operation, and it probably costs them significantly more to make each instrument than it does Gibson. My first electric, which I got about 16 years ago, was a Gibson Les Paul Custom, which I got new with a case from the store for $899. Yes, you read that correctly. The dealer was looking to move some stock to make way for new guitars. That same guitar now lists for $4559 and sells for $2999 according to Musician's Friend. I'm sorry if this is offensive to some, but that is OVERPRICED. The raw materials and labor just do not justify that price point. It's a free country, and they can charge what they will, but the prices + corporate tactics (eliminating small dealers; no NAMM admittance [or summer NAMM presence]; no pictures of actual instruments on the web, only Gibson's stock photos, etc.) + poor quality control have lost me as a customer. I've said it before, I'll say it again - Gibson is currently in their CBS era. Poor old Orville is undoubtedly rolling over in his grave. If they ever have a major corporate overhaul and come down to reality, I'll consider being a cutomer again, 'til then hell no. No dentist guitars for me. They're on there way into bad trouble, and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

I agree they are marked up (just not as much as most people think), and I never said I agree with what Gibson is doing. But that doesn't change the fact that people are still going out and buying the guitars at these prices. Nothing will change as long as that continues to happen.

There has been some interesting stuff going on with Gibson lately, I'm curious as to what the next few years hold in store for them.