Gibson "Quality"
- Thread starter Seraphial
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MikeRocker
What's Your Forum Nameologist?
Re: Gibson "Quality"
OK then, how about this: buy a car from GM versus a small independent automobile manufacturer. In spite of the fact that unions are killing GM, it's going to be many times cheaper. As businesses grow, certainly operating costs grow, but profit margins increase, which is what allows them to grow in the first place. If profit margins shrank, no business would 1)want to grow nor 2) be capable of growing. The only business that loses money as it grows yet stays in business is the federal government.JeffB said:
The Golden Boy
Fleecy Sweaterologist
Re: Gibson "Quality"
Regarding the picture, that guitar did not leave the factory like that. That looks like a break. The crack going from the end of the binding to the glob of filler is the big clue.
Regarding whether a Gibson is worth the money...
Just do a search on Musician's Friend for "American Telecaster" and "American Stratocaster" and then "Gibson Les Paul."
The Tele starts at $879, the Strat starts at $892 for a blemish, the Gibson Les Paul starts at $649 for a humbucker equipped Special, not counting a $499 Melody Maker and it all goes up from there. By doing the search, there is not a less expensive American made Strat or Tele than the lowest two humbuckered Gibson Les Paul model.
If it's not worth it to you- it's not worth it to you. If you believe that Gibson is the evil empire- OK, the corporation is proving itself to be a bunch of weenies. Minus some eggregious QC fallacies- badly cut nuts, some finish work, etc- Gibson has built some of their best guitar in the past 15 or so years. In the mid to late 90's Gibson did a great job of listening to their customers- trying to recapture the 50's glory years- making the LP to appear and sound more like the LP of the 50's.
If weight relief holes bother you, see if you can tell the difference sonically... That's the proof, if it relieves a quarter pound- that's a quarter pound less off your shoulder, and it makes a difference. If the "rocker" neck joint bothers you, a bolt on has less space and I challenge you to find a "short tenon" Les Paul that's had a neck joint failure short of a deliberate attempt to break it. I've seen one Les Paul with a neck joint failure, and the rest of the neck was broken into 3 pieces (and the body was damaged around the mortise area).
The last new LP I bought was in 2001, and corporate policies are pretty much insuring that I will no longer buy a new Les Paul (that and the fact that I have too many damn guitars...).
CNC machining and the like are allowing cheap guitars to be made overseas that completely slaughter the beginner guitars that were available to me, or even people 15 years ago. Whether "cheap" guitars fill your needs or not is up to you, but there is something really special about a well crafted guitar.
Regarding the picture, that guitar did not leave the factory like that. That looks like a break. The crack going from the end of the binding to the glob of filler is the big clue.
Regarding whether a Gibson is worth the money...
Just do a search on Musician's Friend for "American Telecaster" and "American Stratocaster" and then "Gibson Les Paul."
The Tele starts at $879, the Strat starts at $892 for a blemish, the Gibson Les Paul starts at $649 for a humbucker equipped Special, not counting a $499 Melody Maker and it all goes up from there. By doing the search, there is not a less expensive American made Strat or Tele than the lowest two humbuckered Gibson Les Paul model.
If it's not worth it to you- it's not worth it to you. If you believe that Gibson is the evil empire- OK, the corporation is proving itself to be a bunch of weenies. Minus some eggregious QC fallacies- badly cut nuts, some finish work, etc- Gibson has built some of their best guitar in the past 15 or so years. In the mid to late 90's Gibson did a great job of listening to their customers- trying to recapture the 50's glory years- making the LP to appear and sound more like the LP of the 50's.
If weight relief holes bother you, see if you can tell the difference sonically... That's the proof, if it relieves a quarter pound- that's a quarter pound less off your shoulder, and it makes a difference. If the "rocker" neck joint bothers you, a bolt on has less space and I challenge you to find a "short tenon" Les Paul that's had a neck joint failure short of a deliberate attempt to break it. I've seen one Les Paul with a neck joint failure, and the rest of the neck was broken into 3 pieces (and the body was damaged around the mortise area).
The last new LP I bought was in 2001, and corporate policies are pretty much insuring that I will no longer buy a new Les Paul (that and the fact that I have too many damn guitars...).
CNC machining and the like are allowing cheap guitars to be made overseas that completely slaughter the beginner guitars that were available to me, or even people 15 years ago. Whether "cheap" guitars fill your needs or not is up to you, but there is something really special about a well crafted guitar.
The Golden Boy
Fleecy Sweaterologist
Re: Gibson "Quality"
"
Edit: Post #5.
Sour Mash #8 and somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 oz of Bourbon thrown in with some Diet Coke make for coherent thought and great posting!JOLLY said:
"Edit: Post #5.
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Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: Gibson "Quality"
Objection... Just because I´m building more guitars I´m supposed to be paid less for it?
Yes and no.... An assembly line is where all parts and sum-assemblies are pre-finished and simply "screwed together", very comparable to tha work of building a Warmoth. As soon as you´re actually doing ANYTHING on one of the parts itself, you´re off the line or slowing down production..... I know of NO line in the Gibson Factory where one guy for ex. does nothing but screw on switch knobs all day
Buying in Bulk, yes... But you can only speed up proper drying of wood so much. And there´s still the 3x plant factor....3x transportation = 3x costs...Or do they now also have a magical rain forest in the middle of Kansas as well?
And once again the Guitar Fairy comes down and just magically presents Gibson with eight million dollars worth of finishing equipment so that they can still spray nitro and pass EPA guidelines? Sure, that´s gotta be how it happened, and it definitely WASN`T because the players are constantly Bitcxhing about how much they love nitro and how nothing else is worth playing....., they had the fairy present them with those because they WANTED to spend more :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
No 401k for heritage, No real health or dental Coverage, no paid disability and I´m not sure about paid holidays... Gibson offers ALL of these benefits to even their entry level staff (i.e. String WInders, gotta WORK your way up)... But of course the Government also lets Gibson off 100% free of charge "becasue they´re a corporation", so this doesnt play a role....
In other words.... I will take that bet ANY DAY OF ANY WEEK, significantly being defined as 50$ per instrument or more....... Want me to send you my account data now or after you´ve done the math yourself?
In Theory, you´re right.. In PRACTICE, where YOU the Players have been bitching about Gibson´s prices for 30 years (where they were notably cheaper) and buying ESP/ Ibanez /Burny knockoffs (where the cost of materials and workmanship ARE notably cheaper, as well as them being an illegal copy, but the sales price is almopst as high..THAT´s a profit Margin) have taken ANY profit Margin that Gibson hoped to have and decimated it..
Most of you don´t relize that your own consumption habits are the main part of the problem
MikeRocker said:
Objection... Just because I´m building more guitars I´m supposed to be paid less for it?
Yes and no.... An assembly line is where all parts and sum-assemblies are pre-finished and simply "screwed together", very comparable to tha work of building a Warmoth. As soon as you´re actually doing ANYTHING on one of the parts itself, you´re off the line or slowing down production..... I know of NO line in the Gibson Factory where one guy for ex. does nothing but screw on switch knobs all day
Gibson also has MULTIPLE plants whereas Heritage has one.... 3 plants = 3x the base cost.
Buying in Bulk, yes... But you can only speed up proper drying of wood so much. And there´s still the 3x plant factor....3x transportation = 3x costs...Or do they now also have a magical rain forest in the middle of Kansas as well?
And once again the Guitar Fairy comes down and just magically presents Gibson with eight million dollars worth of finishing equipment so that they can still spray nitro and pass EPA guidelines? Sure, that´s gotta be how it happened, and it definitely WASN`T because the players are constantly Bitcxhing about how much they love nitro and how nothing else is worth playing....., they had the fairy present them with those because they WANTED to spend more :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
I will bet you the cost of a new Les Paul Customthat Gibson's cost to produce each guitar is significantly less than Heritage's. Not including, of course, Henry J's paycheck and bonuses and other corporate-level benefits.
No 401k for heritage, No real health or dental Coverage, no paid disability and I´m not sure about paid holidays... Gibson offers ALL of these benefits to even their entry level staff (i.e. String WInders, gotta WORK your way up)... But of course the Government also lets Gibson off 100% free of charge "becasue they´re a corporation", so this doesnt play a role....
In other words.... I will take that bet ANY DAY OF ANY WEEK, significantly being defined as 50$ per instrument or more....... Want me to send you my account data now or after you´ve done the math yourself?
In Theory, you´re right.. In PRACTICE, where YOU the Players have been bitching about Gibson´s prices for 30 years (where they were notably cheaper) and buying ESP/ Ibanez /Burny knockoffs (where the cost of materials and workmanship ARE notably cheaper, as well as them being an illegal copy, but the sales price is almopst as high..THAT´s a profit Margin) have taken ANY profit Margin that Gibson hoped to have and decimated it..
Most of you don´t relize that your own consumption habits are the main part of the problem
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MikeRocker
What's Your Forum Nameologist?
Re: Gibson "Quality"
As businesses grow, overhead grows, however profits increase, through volume of sales and cost-cutting. My problem is when companies increase prices to the point of ridiculousness, and the cost-cutting results in an inferior product. Here's a question, if your business model about companies making less profit as they grow is true, then why has the price of Seymour Duncan's pickups not skyrocketed in the past ten years? IIRC, they are pretty close to what they were ten or fifteen years ago. I don't remember the number, but they told us by how much the company has grown in that amount of time, and it was impressive.
Here's another question: If Gibson is working on such a razor-thin profit margin, how is it that the Universal Amphitheater here at Universal Studios is now known as the Gibson Amphitheater?
Do you honestly think that it costs Gibson more to make an instrument than Heritage? Honestly??? Why would they have such a big operation if that was the case? Why not have stayed a smaller business? Was there just such a demand for their guitars that they altruistically said "Well, a lot of people want our guitars, so we're going to have to ramp up production. We're going to make a lot less money per unit, but let's do it for the people." As businesses grow in size, they find ways to CUT costs. If their profit margin was shrinking as they grew, what would be the motivation/logic behind continuing to grow? Besides, their prices have increased dramatically over the past 10 or so years (a Les Paul Custom now lists for $4559). Certainly more so than the price of raw materials or labor.Zerberus said:
Do you know this? Have you or anyone you know worked for Heritage?Zerberus said:
As businesses grow, overhead grows, however profits increase, through volume of sales and cost-cutting. My problem is when companies increase prices to the point of ridiculousness, and the cost-cutting results in an inferior product. Here's a question, if your business model about companies making less profit as they grow is true, then why has the price of Seymour Duncan's pickups not skyrocketed in the past ten years? IIRC, they are pretty close to what they were ten or fifteen years ago. I don't remember the number, but they told us by how much the company has grown in that amount of time, and it was impressive.
Here's another question: If Gibson is working on such a razor-thin profit margin, how is it that the Universal Amphitheater here at Universal Studios is now known as the Gibson Amphitheater?
The Golden Boy
Fleecy Sweaterologist
Re: Gibson "Quality"
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/d=tp?q=american+telecaster
Sorry! I just went off a search on Musician's Fiend:Luke Duke said:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/d=tp?q=american+telecaster
The Golden Boy
Fleecy Sweaterologist
Re: Gibson "Quality"
Honestly, it needs a finish.Luke Duke said:
The Golden Boy
Fleecy Sweaterologist
Re: Gibson "Quality"
Hey! I just turned 36!
Hey! I just turned 36!
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: Gibson "Quality"
Please apply for a job yourself, saying all too much more would constitute a breach of trust in my eyes if not those of the law and could potentially get me in trouble... But let´s say as far as benefits go I´d rather wind strings for Gibson than build Guitars for Heritage
Luke Duke said:
Please apply for a job yourself, saying all too much more would constitute a breach of trust in my eyes if not those of the law and could potentially get me in trouble... But let´s say as far as benefits go I´d rather wind strings for Gibson than build Guitars for Heritage
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Robert S.
Super Moderator
Re: Gibson "Quality"
You guys crack me up.
I'd swear that for all the energy that some of you put into slamming Gibson that it almost appears that someone is making you buy one. If you think that Gibsons are over-priced or that the fit and finish is sub-par for the price then you are alllowed that opinion. All you have to do is not buy one and then Gibson has done you no harm. With all the complaining I hear about Gibsons you'd swear that they'd done something horrid to some of you.
Waaaaaaa.
I spend somewhere between $400-600 a month just keeping the lights on, heating and cooling my house and keeping gas in the vehicles. Lately I've been painting $600K houses that are selling like hotcakes in a state that has almost 9% unemployment. Price and value are relative to how deep your pockets are and what you deem to have worth. Quit stating your opinions as if they are fact.
Obviously I am very lucky because I found the only 3 Gibson LPs that were made properly and God blessed me with the prosperity to be able to afford them. I can only pray that the rest of you can one day be so fortunate.
You guys crack me up.
I'd swear that for all the energy that some of you put into slamming Gibson that it almost appears that someone is making you buy one. If you think that Gibsons are over-priced or that the fit and finish is sub-par for the price then you are alllowed that opinion. All you have to do is not buy one and then Gibson has done you no harm. With all the complaining I hear about Gibsons you'd swear that they'd done something horrid to some of you.
Waaaaaaa.
I spend somewhere between $400-600 a month just keeping the lights on, heating and cooling my house and keeping gas in the vehicles. Lately I've been painting $600K houses that are selling like hotcakes in a state that has almost 9% unemployment. Price and value are relative to how deep your pockets are and what you deem to have worth. Quit stating your opinions as if they are fact.
Obviously I am very lucky because I found the only 3 Gibson LPs that were made properly and God blessed me with the prosperity to be able to afford them. I can only pray that the rest of you can one day be so fortunate.
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