Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: Gibson "Quality"
You specifically stated "The volume of guitars Gibson builds and sells means the cost of raw materials and labor for each is a lot less", and I was commenting specifically on the labor part... How many people do you think are willing to take a pay cut because their company is doing well?? I sure as hell won´t, And I´m pretty sure most others would at the very least be pissed. BTW, I never at any point in time stated whether GIbson or Heritage has a higher overhead, because I have access to neither´s books, others here evidently do...
Your comment implies that making 10 guitars in a series is significantly less work (and /or can be done by less qualified people) than making 10 individual guitars. And that´s just plain WRONG, physically , theoretically and logically, as long as you´re making all the parts yourself.
And as companies grow, and employees are acquired, employees start demanding more benefits... ex. I can guarantee you that when PRS was a small lone person in his basement peddling his guitars backstage at shows he did NOT have a Matching 401k, Disability, Health, Dental, paid Holidays..... That´s just absurd, He was praying to ****ing god that nothing happens to him like everyone else... These days, even an entry level employee at 8$ an hour has these benefits...
When you outsource neck and body production to China, THEN you start saving money.... But as long as you´re paying an american laborer his 15-25$ an hour plus benefits, it´s gonna cost......... And IMO as long as you HAVE a job in the USA and are earning a similar sum or more (which I assume most professionals do as luthiers aren´t known for their wealth), then I now I challenge you to show me where YOUR Salary is justified, regardless of what you do.... I mean, if luthiers don´t have to eat, why should anyone else have to.
If you don´t have in-depth inside knowledge about the guitar manufacturing and retail world, you´re much better off not passing judgement, or at least listening to what real insiders are saying...the Guitar industy is NOT consumer electronics where everything only gets cheaper and cheaper and cheaper because silicon prices are still falling and indonesian labor costs nothing.....
Au Contraire, It´s an industry where ALL the raw materials are constantly becoming more expensive (I assume that you´ve heard about the rainforests shrinking, species becoming endangered and timber companies raising salaries, and of course the general ecological problems of woodcutting, sometime in the last 30 years, even though they for some reason judging by the arguments don´t apply here, and even if they did they don´t cost money?)
Add on to that the average workers desire for more than dry bread (read: Pay raises due to inflation just to keep the living standard), but those don´t cost either.... That gas, Oil, electricity and water are constantly getting more expensive is also a negligible factor, especially since US companies have to pay for more expensive equipment to fulfill environmental guidelines that many far east companies DON`T have...
Am I getting touchy: Yes.... Because people that have obviously never built a guitar in their lives outside of a parts axe are essentially saying, whether they realize it or not, that Luthiers and guitar makers in general are overpaid bastards that have nothing else in their minds but money money and more money (not how to pay the rent next week, I beg of you, we all live in 250 room mansions
....
Maybe I should start up on how I feel that the costs of carpenters or Masons are too high, after all they´re just putting nails and glue into wood or smearing mortar on bricks.... Or Lawyers, all they did was study for years..... EVERY job looks easy as hell when you´re not willing to open your mind up to the actual work involved.....:yell: :evil:
MikeRocker said:
You specifically stated "The volume of guitars Gibson builds and sells means the cost of raw materials and labor for each is a lot less", and I was commenting specifically on the labor part... How many people do you think are willing to take a pay cut because their company is doing well?? I sure as hell won´t, And I´m pretty sure most others would at the very least be pissed. BTW, I never at any point in time stated whether GIbson or Heritage has a higher overhead, because I have access to neither´s books, others here evidently do...
Your comment implies that making 10 guitars in a series is significantly less work (and /or can be done by less qualified people) than making 10 individual guitars. And that´s just plain WRONG, physically , theoretically and logically, as long as you´re making all the parts yourself.
And as companies grow, and employees are acquired, employees start demanding more benefits... ex. I can guarantee you that when PRS was a small lone person in his basement peddling his guitars backstage at shows he did NOT have a Matching 401k, Disability, Health, Dental, paid Holidays..... That´s just absurd, He was praying to ****ing god that nothing happens to him like everyone else... These days, even an entry level employee at 8$ an hour has these benefits...
When you outsource neck and body production to China, THEN you start saving money.... But as long as you´re paying an american laborer his 15-25$ an hour plus benefits, it´s gonna cost......... And IMO as long as you HAVE a job in the USA and are earning a similar sum or more (which I assume most professionals do as luthiers aren´t known for their wealth), then I now I challenge you to show me where YOUR Salary is justified, regardless of what you do.... I mean, if luthiers don´t have to eat, why should anyone else have to.
If you don´t have in-depth inside knowledge about the guitar manufacturing and retail world, you´re much better off not passing judgement, or at least listening to what real insiders are saying...the Guitar industy is NOT consumer electronics where everything only gets cheaper and cheaper and cheaper because silicon prices are still falling and indonesian labor costs nothing.....
Au Contraire, It´s an industry where ALL the raw materials are constantly becoming more expensive (I assume that you´ve heard about the rainforests shrinking, species becoming endangered and timber companies raising salaries, and of course the general ecological problems of woodcutting, sometime in the last 30 years, even though they for some reason judging by the arguments don´t apply here, and even if they did they don´t cost money?)
Add on to that the average workers desire for more than dry bread (read: Pay raises due to inflation just to keep the living standard), but those don´t cost either.... That gas, Oil, electricity and water are constantly getting more expensive is also a negligible factor, especially since US companies have to pay for more expensive equipment to fulfill environmental guidelines that many far east companies DON`T have...
Am I getting touchy: Yes.... Because people that have obviously never built a guitar in their lives outside of a parts axe are essentially saying, whether they realize it or not, that Luthiers and guitar makers in general are overpaid bastards that have nothing else in their minds but money money and more money (not how to pay the rent next week, I beg of you, we all live in 250 room mansions
.... Maybe I should start up on how I feel that the costs of carpenters or Masons are too high, after all they´re just putting nails and glue into wood or smearing mortar on bricks.... Or Lawyers, all they did was study for years..... EVERY job looks easy as hell when you´re not willing to open your mind up to the actual work involved.....:yell: :evil:
Last edited:
