Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

DeadandBuried

New member
Any Axe FX/Kemper users here? Is the hype worth it?

I'm considering getting one as lugging around my big ass 6505+ is starting to take its toll on my back and also its likely I'll be having to play for multiple bands soon meaning different tones are required. Transporting cabs (or even 40+ watt combos) are going to be tricky, so one of those would be a more viable option.

I'm yet to fully understand the whole hook up if I don't use a cab live, there's an output that will go straight to FOH right? What about recording? And is there an option even if I still want to use a cab? If I want to run it direct I'd need a pretty good PA system first right?

I've seen users with a normal tube amp as a pre-amp but I've never actually understood this fully, the sound should come from the actual unit?

Now the hard part, saving up and actually affording to get one!
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I don't use one, but I've played through an AxeFX. Out of all the modelers I've tried, it's the only one that comes remotely close in terms of feel let alone sound. The main reason I haven't bought one is because they're an extremely expensive box that isn't repairable. If something goes wrong with it and I'm no longer within warranty, it's a paper weight. My tube amp might be heavy, but at least I can fix it if something goes wrong. Whatever your thoughts, be sure to play one first because the experience of playing an AxeFX even with good monitoring is not the same as an actual amp. The difference may not bother you, but it'd be best to find out before dropping $2500 on a processor.

Regarding actually using one, there are a few options. You could run one stereo output to FOH and split it to a FRFR (full range flat response) speaker for monitoring. Another option would be to run one of the stereo outputs to FOH, disable the IR on the second output and run it to a power amp & guitar cabinet. I remember Chris Broderick using the latter method while he was with Megadeth. For recording you can use the primary stereo outs, or the digital I/O if you don't want an extra set of D -> A -> D conversions.

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking regarding PA. A FRFR monitor would probably carry a small room, but you'd need a decent PA to play anywhere larger.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I have a kemper 600w for half year now here is my experience

Pros
Ultra light, I have rack version 4u with only wireless, weights nothing, ultra portable.
You can be loud on stage and don't use crappy vanue monitors if you go direct ifh, amazing sound, sound guy will love you.
What ever sound you want, it's there
Full midi, I use it with fcb1010, works great, even things like wah etc
Remote control app (rig manager), don't have to change profiles when recording in my studio
Loud enough for everything

Cons
Depending on profile, you can get as close as like 80% of real amp sound, the problem is, that you will spend months finding sound, which in the end your don't like. There is always something missing.
You focus more on tone than playing, your practice is no longer placing you lose ability and become worst at playing, depends on person I guess

Kemper is awesome, it can do everything and it's the perfect amp but it's not. Put Kemper a side real tube amp and you will not be heard. It's great studio tool and for live performance, because of how light and versatile it is. Not good for band practice unless you go in ear monitoring.

I suggest you to think about this :
Do I want light amp
Do I want to search for sound (very frustrating, you spend months.. still don't like it)
Do I want to go direct live ? YES !


I say get Kemper, but be prepared, that you will enter waters of millions and millions sounds, it's incredibly hard to find the right one.

I also got Friedman runt 20, that amp kills Kemper any time, you just cannot get sounds like that from digital box.

Lastly, I would use Kemper live and in studio for special sounds that's hard to do. I cannot say I would like it for band practice.

Hope it helps.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I was thinking about getting an AxeFx before I bought my Mark V. Then I got to jam with a guy who had one, while using my Mark IV. The AxeFx is very impressive, especially the effects. He was using a MOSValve amp, not sure what speakers. I did feel like there was something missing in his tone, but I could easily see the reasons for using one, especially for touring arena rock bands where the guy in the last row wouldn't be able to distinguish tubes.

I'd love to have their effects platform, but even then, I don't like to spend a lot of time tweaking.

So I bought the Mark V. It's a modelling amp, but with real circuits and a real, organic feel. Love it...no regrets at all.

Bill
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I have a Line 6 Helix. I've played with a Kemper that a friend owns and it's pretty cool. I haven't tried an Axe FX. I will say that modeling technology definitely falls under Moore's Law. This type of technology has only been around for a few years and it's gotten exponentially better since. It's only a matter of time before the modeling stuff sounds every bit as good as the tube stuff.

However, if you find that you need a bit more feel from a modeler, try a tube power amp.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

The technically best playing person I know has a single main guitar (a custom ordered Suhr) and a single rig, an Axe-FX.

That person spends all his time actually playing, and not messing around with the gear. Crazy. I mean, how can you? What kind of miserable life is that?
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

Thanks for the replies so far everyone.

I guess I'm mainly looking for it to cover a wide range of tones for say, session gigs, one minute I'm going to need a classic Marshall tone, the next a country clean tone and then a metal tone. So for live and studio purposes it'd be a very good asset. Its more to "get the job done" I suppose than chase that holy grail tone, though if it gets close its good enough.

Would going direct lack the "feel" of stage sound? I think it might so I'd have to get in-ears. If I wanted to use it at home then a normal set of studio monitors would be ok right?
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I use an AX8. I don't think I'd ever go to a normal amp setup unless i was forced to. The AX8 is like an Axe-FX Lite...same amps and modeling engine. You can just hit a preset and go, or spend weeks tweaking. If you have been frustrated with single amp/pedal set up, any modeler will make your life better. You will get more consistent live sound, and man, is it ever easy to record.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

It's only a matter of time before the modeling stuff sounds every bit as good as the tube stuff.

It is in the real of software engineering. From my observation it will take considerably more time to get there. Not all software engineers are open to all kinds of crazy physical explanations of why something sounds a bit like this or like that. Especially when it comes to those effects you cannot measure and that you cannot hear.

Why would you care about physical effects that you cannot measure and that you cannot hear? Because that doesn't mean they are not there, and if they are there they might add up to something that is audible.

Let's say you can hear it when the 10k band drops by 1.76 db. Now you have a bunch of physical effects that all make 0.5 db difference, all in the same direction. Once you reach 4 of them you can hear the difference when you turn all of them on and off.

I don't see how a commercial endeavor would pay somebody to research and measure this in detail, with a focus group of known-good listeners for blind tests, all of which you have to pay. Even when they spend 4 weeks on a physical effect and come out with a "actually doesn't make a difference".

I have more hope in open source software. They can spend all their time geeking out over whatever sparks their interest, and you do blind tests by providing samples on github, with an interface that allows people to judge and then see whether they are right. Music and open source software haven't been going along too well so far. There are some good things out there. A very nice hammond organ synthesizer and various drum machines. Guitars are more challenging when it comes to open source software, though.

However, if you find that you need a bit more feel from a modeler, try a tube power amp.

A tube power amp will always sound differently from a solid state last stage because of the difference in output impedance. The solid state end "shortcuts" the speaker when the signal goes away, "braking" its mechanical movements harder. The tube amp allow the speaker to "swing out" a bit more like a bad shock absorber in a car.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I was talking to a guy the other day about this. (Lol I bought a cabinet off of him....)

The Kemper and Axe are different in their approach and this is something you should consider. The Kemper actually records and profiles certain Amps AND the settings to get a profile. So you might have Zakk Wylde's JCM 800 tone in there. (No clue if it is, just my example) You are not getting a JCM 800, you are getting Zakk's tone, and you can tweak it to and extent, but to an extent it is always HIS tone.

The Axe actually builds and amp and cab profile digitally and you can then tweak and combine as you want from there.

My experience is pretty much limited to this lol, but I think the differences are enough that, for me, I'd want to try one of each before buying. I'm sure both are super flexible in what you can do.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

Been a Fractal user since 2009. Recorded with it. Gigged with it. Sold all my tube amps. Still have the AxeFx 2 I got in 2011 but migrated my live rig to an Atomic Amplifire a couple years ago. For gigs, I generally ran direct to FOH and got my own monitor feed. I do have a powered wedge for when the PA at a venue isn't able to give my own mix.

Don't have much hands-on experience with the KPA.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I was talking to a guy the other day about this. (Lol I bought a cabinet off of him....)

The Kemper and Axe are different in their approach and this is something you should consider. The Kemper actually records and profiles certain Amps AND the settings to get a profile. So you might have Zakk Wylde's JCM 800 tone in there. (No clue if it is, just my example) You are not getting a JCM 800, you are getting Zakk's tone, and you can tweak it to and extent, but to an extent it is always HIS tone.

The Axe actually builds and amp and cab profile digitally and you can then tweak and combine as you want from there.

My experience is pretty much limited to this lol, but I think the differences are enough that, for me, I'd want to try one of each before buying. I'm sure both are super flexible in what you can do.



That is the case but you also have option to get direct profile of preamp power amp and cabinet.

For example i do have direct profile of Lee Jackson Perfect connection preamp running into my Marshall EL34 50/50 and marshall cab. I am getting Children of Bodom early sound and its absolutely killing.

So there is an option to get impulse response just for preamp that you like, you can separate the pieces and you still can change the tone with bass middle treble presence as you would normally do on the preamp.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I can't speak of the Kemper or the Axe, but I have a Helix. When I first got it I liked it, but after messing around with it enough I started to hear its shortcomings. But after I got a tube poweramp to run it through, it came to life! So, whichever you choose, get yourself a fairly linear sounding tube poweramp. That'll let you run the full amp models (minus the speaker cab models/IRs, of course), which will let you get the full flavor of the model while adding that pushed poweramp secret sauce.
 
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Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I'm sure both are really cool and I'd love to try them some day. My personality is such though that I fear I'd spend more time tone experimenting than playing =D.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I have been waiting to post. I bought the AX8 almost a year ago and have rarely messed with it and have been less than impressed with the sound running into my guitar amp's effects return. In its defense, that's not an ideal way to get the best sound out of it. In any case, I've been putting a PA together for some reason and finally wired it up for the first time Wednesday night. Now that I've had the opportunity to run it through rig more in line with the design intent I am more comfortable sharing my experience and opinions.

First of all, let me say that there is a great deal of experimentation left to do ... just in the area of reaching a certain volume through the chain of gains (please forgive my lack of live sound specific jargon). The amp models have Master, Gain, and Volume controls, the mixer has Gain and Volume controls, and naturally the power amp has its gain reduction controls. So I'm not really sure how to set it up for optimum results. That said, instructions for the QSC X5 recommend never running below -10db so I set it there. I set the sliders on the mixer at 0db because I understand that to be the starting point. Then an amp model on the AX8, when selected, already has Master, Volume, and Gain already dialed in. Naturally, those are adjustable, but I left them at the default settings and achieved my desired volume by adjusting the mixer's gain. Right or wrong, that's how I set it up.

Without question it sounded much better through PA speakers where higher frequencies are crossed over and sent to a tweater/horn vs the guitar cabinet where a 12" guitar speaker has to reproduce everything. Even so, the clean sounds I anticipated... specifically the various Fender models, are less than stellar. A wife wouldn't hear it, a crowd wouldn't discern it, it probably would be undetectable in a band mix, but a guitar player with a decent ear in a room alone will hear the difference. The modeler is absolutely pretending to do what a tube amp does better. There is a certain richness or harmonic content that is simply not there. Again in the AX8's defense, I have not learned to tweak anything, and it certainly permits rather deep editing. Whether it is a "Brown" amp model or "Tweed" or whatever, the sound is just a bit too in-your-face and stiff. Anyway, all those things can be tweaked, but I am slow to learn those things.

On a very positive note, the Trainwreck model, the JTM45, and some other Marshalls ( I can't remember which ones right now) were beyond exceptional. Now, I don't know how those amps actually sound, but the models were great. Even their clean tones were perfect for me, and the lead tones I got were out of the world. I like a searing blues(ish) lead tone with plenty of sustain but without a lot of grit and this thing really delivers.

The bottom line is that I could have purchased a very good amp for what I spent on this unit, but a good amp can't do what it can do. That is, it lacks the convenience and versatility of the modeler. Last year I played at a festival here in town and ran my pedals through an amp sim pedal and into the board and it sounded like crap to me. I am playing again this year and I'm glad to have this pedal. Once I learn to set up the switches and set up patches it will be a handy tool for the times when taking an amp is either impossible or impractical. It is already good enough, and I know it will be great once I get it dialed in to suit my needs. It is so good that if I wasn't addicted to amps and pedals I'd be tempted to unload.
 
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Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I use my AX8 every day...and wouldn't think to put it through a regular guitar amp. I think it defeats what it is so good at. Through even a cheaper FR system, it will sound miles better than through a guitar power amp and speaker.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

I use my AX8 every day...and wouldn't think to put it through a regular guitar amp. I think it defeats what it is so good at. Through even a cheaper FR system, it will sound miles better than through a guitar power amp and speaker.

It was my only option until I got a PA. A powered monitor would have been a simpler and much less expensive option, but I "needed" a PA for more than the AX8.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

Programmable modeling amps are clearly the way of the future.

But it does take patience, developing new skills and acquiring new knowledge to get the most of them.

If you just walk into a music store and plug into a modeling amp and go through the factory presets you're not going to hear what you want to hear.

You have to create your own presets with your own sounds.

And that won't happen in the first five minutes that you plug into one.

I absolutely love the tones I get from my Mustang III and it cost me less than $400 including the optional, but very useful, 4 button footswitch.
 
Re: Going digital Axe Fx/Kemper

If you already have a 6505, you might want to look at the new 6505 mini head. 20w of tube power, weighs 16lbs and has a DI on the back of the amp so you can plug in to the house.

I saw a touring band last month (Artificial Brain - I believe the guitarist is also in Revocation) and one of the guitarist was using it. I was surprised to see such a small amp for a band that tours and does small shows to large fests. I don't have any experience with it, but it might be a cheaper (and fixable) alternative to a Axe FX rig.
 
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