Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Backbeatdeano

New member
Hey guys, I was hoping one of you most knowledgable people might be able to help me out. I can wield a soldering iron, but I’m useless at actually figuring out any kind of electronics!!

Here’s the thing...

My guitar has 2 Humbuckers, 1 vol(500k) 1 push/pull tone (500k) pull for coil split, 3 way toggle, 4 conductor wiring.

I would like to do 2 things if possible.

1. Remove the tone control from the circuit when on humbuckers

2. When coil split, make the pickups see 250K Vol & Tone values.

Does anyone know if both of these things are possible at the same time?

Would anyone be able to break down the wiring in super basic terms, or point me to a wiring diagram? I’ve had a look around, but can’t quite find what I’m looking for.

Thanks guys!

Dean
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Welcome to the forum. This would be simple with a Superswitch. Might be a little tricky with a 3-way toggle. I'll chew on this, but hopefully, other wiring folks will chime in also.

Edit: One quick thing I notice: If you don't want a tone control on humbuckers, and want a 250k on split . . . just use a 250k tone pot to begin with. That problem's solved. :D

Edit 2: Ok . . . a push-pull won't do it. But a Fender S1 switch will.

Edit 3: An S1 switch is a 4PDT switch. Schematically, it would look like this:

If you decide to go this route, I can do a more conventional wiring diagram. Having said that, I really don't think you need to do the 250k volume pot thang. Split humbuckers sound great with a 500k pot.

S1_split_tone.png
 
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Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Hey guys, I was hoping one of you most knowledgable people might be able to help me out. I can wield a soldering iron, but I’m useless at actually figuring out any kind of electronics!!

Here’s the thing...

My guitar has 2 Humbuckers, 1 vol(500k) 1 push/pull tone (500k) pull for coil split, 3 way toggle, 4 conductor wiring.

I would like to do 2 things if possible.

1. Remove the tone control from the circuit when on humbuckers

2. When coil split, make the pickups see 250K Vol & Tone values.

Does anyone know if both of these things are possible at the same time?

Would anyone be able to break down the wiring in super basic terms, or point me to a wiring diagram? I’ve had a look around, but can’t quite find what I’m looking for.

Thanks guys!

Dean

Yes, it can be done and below is my recommended way to do it.

You need a switch that has many poles to do multiple things at once. If you kept both pots as 500K value, you would need a 5 pole double throw (5PDT) switch, which i am not sure even exists. However, in the scenario you described, the Tone Pot has no need to remain as a 500K value at all since it only gets used during Split Coil mode and at a 250K value, so my recommendation changes the Tone Pot to a 250K value, and that means we only need a 4PDT switch, which. is commonly available.

4PDT switches are available as traditional two-way toggle switches, or in the format of a push-push Fender S1 switch that has a pot for use as a volume or tone ctl. In my recommended scheme, you will no longer need your current push-pull for coil splits, and so i replace that push-pull with a Fender S1 push-push switch. Per a recent thread on this forum, mutliple forum members reported the S1 switch is very relaiable and durable, even through it does cost in the +$20 area.

You can make a 500K pot see 250K by wiring a 470K resistor in between (in the case of a volume pot) the 1st and 3rd lugs. In the case of a Tone Pot, the resistor would be wired between the two active lugs (1 and 2), but we don't need to do that here per what i mentioned above.
So in the diagram below, one pole of the 4 pole S1 switch brings the resistor into the circuit for the Volume ctl when the S1 switch is engaged.

Another pole of the S1 Switch brings the Tone Control into circuit when the S1 switch is engaged.

And finally the last two poles of the 4 pole S1 switch individually handle the two coil splits, currently being done by the 2 poles of your push-pull switch which is getting replaced. I designed the coil split so that in Coil Split mode, the Neck Outer (South) coil is active and the Bridge Inner (North) coil is left active. That is why the pole of the S1 switch that handles the Series Link for the Neck pickup routes that signal to the Neck Hot signal instead of to ground when the S1 switch is engaged -that gets you the Outer coil instead of the Inner coil. These two particular coils are popular choices (vs the other coil) when each pickup is played by itself (the bridge inner coil doesn't have the shrillness of the outer coil which is due to the proximity to the bridge piece) and the Neck inner coil sits closer to the 2nd octave node located where the 24th fret would be -a location that has richer harmonic content), and when both pickups are played together in middle position, they are hum-canceling because the two coils are opposite magnetic polarity (south for the neck and north for the bridge).

In this diagram, the pot of the S1 switch is used as the Master Volume control. So you would need the 500k version of the s1 switch. The diagram could be changed to use the S1 pot as the Tone Control instead, but you would need to acquire the 250K version of the S1 switch. *or* you could use a 4PDT awitch in the format of a two-way switch (making the volume and tone pots separate), but i don't know if you have a hole free on your guitar ready to use for that and if not, if you are willing to drill a hole for that switch - that's why i went with the (more expensive) S1 switch.

Let me know what you think.

EDIT: the labeling in the diagram says the wiring color code used is Dimarzio, but it is not - it is Seymour Duncan.


20200302_095505.jpg

f9b5ffce-f1b7-4615-96d2-adc7bb79b32a.JPG
 
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Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Am I missing something?

Just use a 250k p/p pot. One side of the p/p is normal split: red+white to center lug of p/p switch, when in "up", the upper lug takes it to ground creating the split. On the other side of the p/p, run the hot wire from the pup to the middle lug. When "up" that side's upper lug takes it to the three-way and to the 250k input lug. When "down", that lower lug takes it directly to the 3-way bypassing the tone pot.
 
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Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Oh, wait a minute. You want to do this for BOTH humbuckers? Yeah, you can't do that with just one p/p.

Sorry for the misinformation.
 
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Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Wow thanks kingswebe and gang! That was a super helpful reply, thank you for taking the time. I don’t have a spare hole on the guitar, and am not really up for drilling it as it has a fancy burled walnut top, so the S1 switch sounds like it could be the one. I think I would probably prefer to go for having the tone as the s1, just because that’s where I’m used to having the split.

The only thing that is bugging me, and it is very shallow, is I don’t think the traditional fender knobs are going to look right on this guitar, which is a bit more of a modern style jobby. That being said might be worth sacrificing some of my vanity for functionality.

In your drawing is that a 3 way blade switch? I actually have a 3 way toggle in mine, sorry should have been a bit clearer on that!

Is there any chance you might be able to knock a diagram up on a computer? I know it’s asking a lot, but I think I’m going to struggle to follow unless it’s clear enough for a child to read!��

Thanks again dude!
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Wow thanks kingswebe and gang! That was a super helpful reply, thank you for taking the time. I don’t have a spare hole on the guitar, and am not really up for drilling it as it has a fancy burled walnut top, so the S1 switch sounds like it could be the one. I think I would probably prefer to go for having the tone as the s1, just because that’s where I’m used to having the split.

The only thing that is bugging me, and it is very shallow, is I don’t think the traditional fender knobs are going to look right on this guitar, which is a bit more of a modern style jobby. That being said might be worth sacrificing some of my vanity for functionality.

In your drawing is that a 3 way blade switch? I actually have a 3 way toggle in mine, sorry should have been a bit clearer on that!

Is there any chance you might be able to knock a diagram up on a computer? I know it’s asking a lot, but I think I’m going to struggle to follow unless it’s clear enough for a child to read!��

Thanks again dude!

There are a few different styles of knob available for the S1 switch. I came up with the below options when i did an internet search for "fender s1 knob".

View attachment 103614

You can use the following cross-reference to convert the wiring for the 3 way blade switch in the diagram to a 3 way toggle switch.

3ws_trans(1).jpg

Following is a version of the sketch diagram where i have tweaked the Exposure, Contrast, Brightness, etc. to try to make the lines clearer. Sorry, i don't have the free time to invest in doing this on a computer. But am glad to clarify on anything in the sketch that isn't clear, just let me know.

EDIT: the labeling in the diagram says the wiring color code used is Dimarzio, but it is not - it is Seymour Duncan.

20200304_100404.jpg
 
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Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Wow thanks kingswebe and gang! That was a super helpful reply, thank you for taking the time. I don’t have a spare hole on the guitar, and am not really up for drilling it as it has a fancy burled walnut top, so the S1 switch sounds like it could be the one. I think I would probably prefer to go for having the tone as the s1, just because that’s where I’m used to having the split.

The only thing that is bugging me, and it is very shallow, is I don’t think the traditional fender knobs are going to look right on this guitar, which is a bit more of a modern style jobby. That being said might be worth sacrificing some of my vanity for functionality.

In your drawing is that a 3 way blade switch? I actually have a 3 way toggle in mine, sorry should have been a bit clearer on that!

Is there any chance you might be able to knock a diagram up on a computer? I know it’s asking a lot, but I think I’m going to struggle to follow unless it’s clear enough for a child to read!��

Thanks again dude!

Hey Backbeatdeano,

In the last few days i happened to get pretty adept at using a software for creating wiring diagrams, so if you still need/want a computer based diagram, i can do that for you. Just let me know.
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Hey dude...sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'm getting one of my pickups rewound this week, so figured it's a good time to give this wiring ago! If the offer for the computer diagram is still there i would love to take you up on the offer! If you're up for it, could you make it so it has a 3 way toggle switch, and a 250K S1 switch as the tone, then hopefully i shouldn't be able to screw it up!! cheers again :-)
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Also, i have just been doing some reading, would that 470k resistor sound ok when using one pickup on its own, but when both pickups are selected together, cause the sound to be overly dark due to the combined resistance of both pickups plus the resistor? I may have got that completely wrong though! If that was the case, and i opted to instead keep the Vol pot at 500K on the Hum & Split, would that negate the use of a S1 switch and mean i could just use a normal push pull 250k pot for the tone? Hopefully that makes sense!! :-)
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Also, i have just been doing some reading, would that 470k resistor sound ok when using one pickup on its own, but when both pickups are selected together, cause the sound to be overly dark due to the combined resistance of both pickups plus the resistor? I may have got that completely wrong though! If that was the case, and i opted to instead keep the Vol pot at 500K on the Hum & Split, would that negate the use of a S1 switch and mean i could just use a normal push pull 250k pot for the tone? Hopefully that makes sense!! :-)

I saw your last couple replies. I have to go back and reacquaint myself with your original request before i can answer your last question. Will let you know shortly.

Separately, yes, my offer to create a computer-based drawing for you still stands.
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

would that 470k resistor sound ok when using one pickup on its own, but when both pickups are selected together, cause the sound to be overly dark due to the combined resistance of both pickups plus the resistor?

Yeah, the more i read up on it, that seems to be a real concern. Found this online:

Screenshot_20200416-202556_Chrome.jpg

ref: https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/10/17/using-resistors-in-guitars-101/amp/


If i opted to instead keep the Vol pot at 500K on the Hum & Split, would that negate the use of a S1 switch and mean i could just use a normal push pull 250k pot for the tone?

No, cuz you would still have 3 different things you wanted to accomplish at the same time, and a push-pull can only do max of 2 things.
1) split neck humbucker
2) split bridge humbucker
3) remove the tone pot from the circuit when in humbucker mode

... unless you are ok with using 2 push-pull switches? 1 to do the two coilsplits, and 1 to remove or add back the tone pot into the circuit (?) And obviously in this scenario, you cannot do all 3 things at once like you can with the S1 swifch.
 
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Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Hey man, yeh that was the article I was reading too. In which case, I think I would rather just go with a 500K Vol pot and not worry about the resistor, hopefully having the splits see the 250k tone pot will take some of the top off the single sound anyway? I’ll get the parts ordered up today. Looking forward to giving this a go! So just to double confirm for your diagram...

2 humbuckers, 3 way toggle, 1 500K Vol, No tone on Humbuckers. S1 switch as 250k Tone pot, tone pot only in on split coils. I think that was everything ��
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Oh just to answer your question, I don’t want to drill any more holes so definitely need to go with the S1 ��
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Oh I’ve just re read your post and now understand you said it would be possible with 2 push pull pots which makes sense. Aesthetically and financially that would be cool, but I think it would probably make it a bit too complicated to actually operate.
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Oh I’ve just re read your post and now understand you said it would be possible with 2 push pull pots which makes sense. Aesthetically and financially that would be cool, but I think it would probably make it a bit too complicated to actually operate.

Agreed. Ok so the new drawing will festure an S1 switch.
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Hey man, yeh that was the article I was reading too. In which case, I think I would rather just go with a 500K Vol pot and not worry about the resistor, hopefully having the splits see the 250k tone pot will take some of the top off the single sound anyway? I’ll get the parts ordered up today. Looking forward to giving this a go! So just to double confirm for your diagram...

2 humbuckers, 3 way toggle, 1 500K Vol, No tone on Humbuckers. S1 switch as 250k Tone pot, tone pot only in on split coils. I think that was everything ��

Ok, understood
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Hey man, yeh that was the article I was reading too. In which case, I think I would rather just go with a 500K Vol pot and not worry about the resistor, hopefully having the splits see the 250k tone pot will take some of the top off the single sound anyway? I’ll get the parts ordered up today. Looking forward to giving this a go! So just to double confirm for your diagram...

2 humbuckers, 3 way toggle, 1 500K Vol, No tone on Humbuckers. S1 switch as 250k Tone pot, tone pot only in on split coils. I think that was everything ��

Ok, here you go.

NYMs7uO.jpg
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Amazing, thanks so much Jack! That is clear as day! Shall get wiring that up this week and let you know the results ��
 
Re: Help need on funky coil split wiring. Make push pull see 250K pots

Ok, so, i think we may have run in to a problem...Was just about to order the S1 pot, and just checked the shaft length of my current pots. The ones i have in there at the moment are long shaft (18mm), and it appears that the S1 switch is only made with a short shaft. Gona measure to see if it might fit, but i don't think it will be long enough to fit through the my guitar. Dammit!! :-(
 
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