How did you learn to improvise?

And after skimming this whole thread, I've got an idea for the new year.
Inspired by Aceman, a Shredoff.
Guess that I should start a new thread.

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Things like muscle memory and using scales you learnt before don't detract from an improvised piece being truly improvised at all. That's like saying a chef is uncreative cause he uses carrots and onions and potatoes & steak and shouldnt have used ingredients of any sort to be truly creative, or an author should'nt have used words that he learnt before etc...

As long as you're doing something different that is'nt scripted each time it's total improvisation..




Also ..you must use different ^^ axes.. :D
 
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Securb said:
If you take some of the most recognizable improved pieces of rock let's say Silver Wheels and Eruption. There are different themes and phrases that are strung together but there is no way Wilson or VanHalen could have stitched those riffs together if they had not played and practiced them many times over and over. Both performances are off-the-cuff improvisations, but both performers are going to build the piece of music based on their prowess of the instrument, song structure, and musical knowledge. Most improv is a variation of a theme. Nancy never played Silver Wheels the same way twice.


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I'll have to respectfully dispute the EVH improvisation assertion here for the moment. Back in the late 70's / early 1980's I happened to know a photographer who knew DLR through his work, and tangentially was acquainted with EVH through that friendship, and the low-down at the time was that "Eddie can't jam. That dude never improvises. Everything he does, he's practiced it before, even practicing to make it sound spontaneous." That would include the Star Fleet jams. My understanding is EVH might do Eruption differently from tour to tour, or even change it while out on a tour, but he worked out how exactly it would all go, long before the show started. He never got on stage without a well-formed measure-by-measure detailed roadmap in his head. Now, this is 2nd/3rd hand information, so it could be wrong. I guess the evidence might be if there is any footage of EVH using eye contact to tell the band when his solo was over or not.
 
Back to parts of things the artists have played before. The hammer-on part of Eruption was something Eddie was familiar with, but from what I understand, the track in its entirety was off the cuff.

“I walked out to use the restroom or get a coffee on the outside of Sunset Sound, and I heard him playing. It sounded like something you could only play on an organ, like a Bach fugue. I couldn’t believe it was coming from a guitar. I was like, “What is that?” He was like, “Oh, it’s nothing. Just something I warm up with before a show.” I yelled at Donn, “Roll tape!” And he said [flatly], “I’m already rolling.” He heard me talking to Ed.”
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Phantasmagoria said:
Things like muscle memory and using scales you learnt before don't detract from an improvised piece being truly improvised at all. That's like saying a chef is uncreative cause he uses carrots and onions and potatoes & steak and shouldnt have used ingredients of any sort to be truly creative, or an author should'nt have used words that he learnt before etc...
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Well, put and a perfect analogy. If the author used words he had never used before, the book would be gibberish, and the same thing can be said about a piece of music.

Phantasmagoria said:
As long as you're doing something different that is'nt scripted each time it's total improvisation.
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By definition
 
And yeah - If I have three classic pentatonic/blues licks-riffs I know....

And I open up A, B, C, and then another time I open up C, B, A

Technically improvising. Musically, not that interesting or amazing. That is certainly say 'Level 1' of improvisation.
 
beaubrummels said:
I guess the evidence might be if there is any footage of EVH using eye contact to tell the band when his solo was over or not.
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Which is a great point and yet another part of improvisation that has yet to be discussed, communication.

As stated agreed to by most, when improving alone, you have the freedom to do whatever you like. In an ensemble setting, there are physical, verbal, and musical communications that give you cues as to where the music is going. It is challenging to improvise in an ensemble setting without some musical knowledge.

In a jam, you need to know where to get in and out of your solo. In most cases, that will be a verse or chorus. At that point, you pass off the solo to the next musician. Typically the band leader will look at or nod to the next soloist.

If the band has a featured player who is taking an extended solo, that player might alter the length of the solo each night. In a lot of cases, there is a return to the melody or a musical cue that tells the band, "I am done. Let's get back to the song. I am guessing Eruption live ends on the same riff or divebomb, signaling the rest of the band EVH is done with his solo.

Understanding the framework of what is going to be played is critical. A band member will "call" "Body & Soul in Bb as a waltz". Or "All The Things You Are in Eb in 7" If you do not have knowledge of the song, time signatures, and keys, you will be lost. A musician might call a "Chicago shuffle in G" in a Blues setting."

Very rarely is improvisation done without structure or understanding outside of some rare avant-garde music. Even with the most avant-garde improvisational Jazz, if you ask the musician what they just played, they will respond with a song title. You will never hear them say we just made that up.
 
Here is an excellent example of spontaneous improvisation. This is Liquid Tension Experiment, Tony Levin, and members of Dream Theater. They were frustrated during a recording session and decided to just jam and roll tape. You can hear in the beginning key and tempo are being established. Very similar to an "alap" in a Raga or the "head" of a Jazz improvisation. As the song develops, different musicians start to pull the music in different rhythmic and harmonic directions, and the other musicians adapt to the changes and then pull the piece in other directions.


 
Woah, this has been a lot more responses and reading then I've expected.

The key takeaway that I'm getting however is that there are multiple different ways to learn, and so long as I consistently and intentionally try to improve I will get there.
 
BlackhawkRise said:
Woah, this has been a lot more responses and reading then I've expected.

The key takeaway that I'm getting however is that there are multiple different ways to learn, and so long as I consistently and intentionally try to improve I will get there.
Click to expand...

You definitely get it. Improvisation fuels your skills, knowledge of theory, and especially your creativity. I suggest finding some jam tracks on YouTube in different keys and styles and having fun with them. Get a bit outside your comfort zone when it comes to styles. Go online and see if there are any local jams in your area, and start playing with others. Blues and R&B jams are amazing places to learn about improvisation. When you realize what some of the old timers can do with an I-IV-V it really opens your eyes to a lot of possibilities. Most importantly when improving live embrace the fact that mistakes will be made, embrace them, laugh, and move on to the next lick.
 
Securb said:
Which is a great point and yet another part of improvisation that has yet to be discussed, communication.

As stated agreed to by most, when improving alone, you have the freedom to do whatever you like. In an ensemble setting, there are physical, verbal, and musical communications that give you cues as to where the music is going. It is challenging to improvise in an ensemble setting without some musical knowledge.

In a jam, you need to know where to get in and out of your solo. In most cases, that will be a verse or chorus. At that point, you pass off the solo to the next musician. Typically the band leader will look at or nod to the next soloist.

If the band has a featured player who is taking an extended solo, that player might alter the length of the solo each night. In a lot of cases, there is a return to the melody or a musical cue that tells the band, "I am done. Let's get back to the song. I am guessing Eruption live ends on the same riff or divebomb, signaling the rest of the band EVH is done with his solo.

Understanding the framework of what is going to be played is critical. A band member will "call" "Body & Soul in Bb as a waltz". Or "All The Things You Are in Eb in 7" If you do not have knowledge of the song, time signatures, and keys, you will be lost. A musician might call a "Chicago shuffle in G" in a Blues setting."

Very rarely is improvisation done without structure or understanding outside of some rare avant-garde music. Even with the most avant-garde improvisational Jazz, if you ask the musician what they just played, they will respond with a song title. You will never hear them say we just made that up.
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You're forgetting Syd Barrett. He reached a point where he would never play the same thing twice.

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Alright, you all have been so behaved..... but we all know where this thread is going...

True Improvisational Guitar

AKA Henry Kaiser

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang: :headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:

 
Securb said:
You are going straight to hell for making me watch that.
Click to expand...

:evil::alcoholic:evil::alcoholic:evil::alcoholic:evil::nana:

Whats even sadder is poor Alexander Dumble...... he will be more known for backing Henry Kaiser in that show than his amps in the future.

:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:
 
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