how do I know what the right amp tone is?

[BleedingFingertips]

So, I think it's quite obvious that one will perceive the sound differently depending on one's position (height, angle) to speakers. The issue is that one needs to know in which position one hears the "true" sound, right?

I recently put Black Winters in one of my guitars, and when I tested them with my Randall RD40C I found the BWs sounding waaay to muddy. WTF?? These should be very clear, aren't they? I played around with the frequencies and the height of the PU and the pole pieces and could hardly dial in the sound I liked without engaging an OD pedal.

Then I noticed that I got this awful sound when I was sitting in front of the amp (appr. 7 feet distance) with my head slightly above the speaker. When I put my head directly close to the speaker the sound was amazing. The question is what tone is THE tone? Should I trust the one on the speaker surface? Because it's the spot where the mic picks up the tone (I don't have a mic, so I can't check if I'm right).

Sorry, if the question is too obvious for some.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

When it sounds like a Crate G10XL, you’ll know it’s right.

View attachment 84652

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

This why Leo came out with tilt back legs on combos and cabs decades ago. Amp stands, angled top cabs, tilted back cabs, stacking cabs, and close mic'ing and then mixing through the monitors, are all strategies to hear how the sound is on axis and twenty yards out in the venue. Once you are hearing the sound as it is, you can eq it to taste.

 

[some_dude]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

IMO, if you're gigging the "true" sound is the sound the audience hears, which is either your direct sound if they're standing in front of the stage or your FOH sound if they're standing further back in the room.

A lot of people like the darker off axis sound and dislike having the speakers aimed directly at their head. A lot of those people dial in way too much high end and their sound can come across as piercing. These (IMO) are also the people that ***** about soundmen always asking them to turn down.

Myself, I've gotten better results by aiming the speakers directly at my head. If it's too bright, rather than aim the speakers lower I turn down the treble. My band is typically one of the loudest on the bill and we rarely get asked to turn down.

IMO/YMMV

 

[Mincer]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

I agree that the true sound is what the audience hears in a mix. This isn't what you are hearing, or what a recording picks up, or what the drummer hears through his/her monitor. It is almost impossible to hear your amp the way the audience hears it (I use a Fractal for this). So, just go with what you like. If it inspires you to play more, then you have the right sound.

 

[Coma]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

I've played a bunch of (****ty) combos where you really needed it angled at your head to sound right, and I've played cabs so piercing that they only sound good on the floor.
Taken into account the vast differences in sound you get by simply altering mic placement (not to mention mic type) when recording, I'd say there is no "right" amp tone. What's right is what you think sounds good.
Which also makes me wonder how many guys swap their pups because they consider their tone too muddy or too piercing etc etc when maybe an EQ or raising the cab could've solved it.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

Is there a lot of furniture, upholstery, and carpet in the room where you are running your amp? I can't imagine what else would make Black Winters sound muddy, unless you threw your amp in the pool.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

Type of speaker enters into it too IMO. Celestions tend to focus into a relatively narrow cone where the full spectrum of their tone is heard. Off-axis you miss a lot of the high end. And while Celestions are particularly beamy, the same's true with all brands to a certain degree. Over many years of gigging with Marshall cabinets I learned never to have my cabs aimed directly at the soundman if the board was anywhere near the stage, otherwise the mix would suffer. Out beyond 60 feet or so it makes less difference I think.

I agree for an accurate impression of the sound you really want the speakers pointing at your head. Otherwise (as some have said already) you're likely to set your tone way too bright. What comes out of the PA isn't ever going to be exactly what comes out of your speaker, of course. But it's best if you're hearing close to what the mic does. Even using an angled 4x12 I always had it up on top of its roadcase closer to ear level. For smaller rigs like a combo amp, I'd say an amp stand is pretty important.

 

[jeremy]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

are celestions more beamy than other speakers? 4x12 cabs are notorious for being beamy but ive used celestions in open back combos and havent noticed them being any more beamy than anything else

 

[Coma]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

Type of speaker enters into it too IMO.

:smack: Sh*t yes! That too. Speaker/cab selection can make or break your sound.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

the JB is really sensitive to height adjustment
if they are muddy maybe they are too close to the strings

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

You can't make Black Winters muddy with height adjustment if you wanted to.

 

[dystrust]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

are celestions more beamy than other speakers? 4x12 cabs are notorious for being beamy but ive used celestions in open back combos and havent noticed them being any more beamy than anything else

+1 for the cabinet being beamy.

A 4x12 really isn't a great cabinet design from an engineering perspective, but I'm not sure that all of the data as far as cabinet dimensions, speaker excursion, etc. were available in 1962.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

are celestions more beamy than other speakers? 4x12 cabs are notorious for being beamy but ive used celestions in open back combos and havent noticed them being any more beamy than anything else

I used to use a 4x12 with JBL K120s and it was definitely less beamy than my Marshall 4x12s. It's been twenty years since I owned any open backed Marshalls so I can't compare them to the sealed cabs that I'm so familiar with. In fact, I don't remember ever gigging with an open backed Marshall.

 

[Demanic]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

There are diffuser plates that one can get to place in front of the speakers to eliminate beaming. I've found open back cabs to be more beamy than closed.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

Is there a lot of furniture, upholstery, and carpet in the room where you are running your amp? I can't imagine what else would make Black Winters sound muddy, unless you threw your amp in the pool.

My amp's in the living room. It has some furniture and a carpet, of course

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

I agree for an accurate impression of the sound you really want the speakers pointing at your head. Otherwise (as some have said already) you're likely to set your tone way too bright. What comes out of the PA isn't ever going to be exactly what comes out of your speaker, of course. But it's best if you're hearing close to what the mic does.

Okay, I see. I need a goddamn mic! But so far, I'm using my rhead in the right position. Thanks, man.

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

I've played a bunch of (****ty) combos where you really needed it angled at your head to sound right, and I've played cabs so piercing that they only sound good on the floor.
Taken into account the vast differences in sound you get by simply altering mic placement (not to mention mic type) when recording, I'd say there is no "right" amp tone. What's right is what you think sounds good.
Which also makes me wonder how many guys swap their pups because they consider their tone too muddy or too piercing etc etc when maybe an EQ or raising the cab could've solved it.

I of course didn't mean that an amp has the "right" tone. I rather wanted to know whether I should worry about the spot/angle at which the sound is bad, even if there're other spots with "good" sound (all else being equal, of course). But I see your point. If it sounds good it's good. But it perhaps also depends on whether you practice at home, record via mic or line output, or gig.

 

[Demanic]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

Ok, if you're playing in the livingroom, try to stand about 5'-6' in front of your cab. It should give you a better idea. But trying to hear what the audience is hearing is a voodoo party.

 

[BleedingFingertips]

Re: how do I know what the right amp tone is?

I agree that the true sound is what the audience hears in a mix. This isn't what you are hearing, or what a recording picks up, or what the drummer hears through his/her monitor. It is almost impossible to hear your amp the way the audience hears it (I use a Fractal for this). So, just go with what you like. If it inspires you to play more, then you have the right sound.

Agree.