How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
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beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
20 years from now, underground indie punks worldwide will be scrambling to try and find these in pawn shops and used swap places for their trendy subversive high school / college / garage band.
20 years from now, underground indie punks worldwide will be scrambling to try and find these in pawn shops and used swap places for their trendy subversive high school / college / garage band.
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
There is no way they will be able to afford them, even then. They will probably have better taste, anyway. And I don't think enough of those were sold to actually end up in pawn shops.
There is no way they will be able to afford them, even then. They will probably have better taste, anyway. And I don't think enough of those were sold to actually end up in pawn shops.
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
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JustFred, great point on leadership... Whats the back story? What were the challenges? I know us steel had to kick up quality to specialize and differentiated... Did aluminum have to reposition to compete?
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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Mincer, I think you're onto a big issue... There are so many one off designs because Gibson doesn't really know what customers want so they keep experimenting...
At the same time, since none of these designs have become popular, younger folks dont see new Gibsons as market leaders.
This is a sad, loop that's the opposite direction of product roadmaps.
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Mincer, I think you're onto a big issue... There are so many one off designs because Gibson doesn't really know what customers want so they keep experimenting...
At the same time, since none of these designs have become popular, younger folks dont see new Gibsons as market leaders.
This is a sad, loop that's the opposite direction of product roadmaps.
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Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
A few comments on this:
1. The Volute is a BAD idea. What the Volute ACTUALLY does is prevent the neck from breaking on the neck, where it is relatively easy to fix. Instead, a guitar dropped with sufficient force to break the neck with a volute, will actually track the HEADSTOCK itself. This is a very difficult fix and makes tuning very unstable.
2. And then there are myths and facts. It is easy to find people who say "Gibson necks are like toothpicks!!! They be break-in' when you put them in the stand too hard!!!" I call BS plain and simple. Yes - there are thin necked 60's LP's/SG's that have suffered horrific neck breaks. But I'm gonna bet that they are not any more prone to this than any other guitar with a set neck. However - the baseball bat necks? Pretty damn sturdy. The 70's necks? 3 piece maple?!?!?!?! Indestructable. I have played for almost 40 years and have dropped mine, and seen a lot of Les Pauls. I don't know of one actual neck break event of anyone I know with a Les Paul. And certainly not anymore than any other guitar brand.
You may be a fine luthier with great skills - but I think your perception of reality is skewed from seeing only broken guitars. There are millions and millions of Les Pauls floating around out there that are just fine.
A few comments on this:
1. The Volute is a BAD idea. What the Volute ACTUALLY does is prevent the neck from breaking on the neck, where it is relatively easy to fix. Instead, a guitar dropped with sufficient force to break the neck with a volute, will actually track the HEADSTOCK itself. This is a very difficult fix and makes tuning very unstable.
2. And then there are myths and facts. It is easy to find people who say "Gibson necks are like toothpicks!!! They be break-in' when you put them in the stand too hard!!!" I call BS plain and simple. Yes - there are thin necked 60's LP's/SG's that have suffered horrific neck breaks. But I'm gonna bet that they are not any more prone to this than any other guitar with a set neck. However - the baseball bat necks? Pretty damn sturdy. The 70's necks? 3 piece maple?!?!?!?! Indestructable. I have played for almost 40 years and have dropped mine, and seen a lot of Les Pauls. I don't know of one actual neck break event of anyone I know with a Les Paul. And certainly not anymore than any other guitar brand.
You may be a fine luthier with great skills - but I think your perception of reality is skewed from seeing only broken guitars. There are millions and millions of Les Pauls floating around out there that are just fine.
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
On the Gibson designs:
Yeah - too many choices is bad for business. Oreo has the very same problem.
And Gibson very simply needs to have a core line of historic guitars that are long tenon, 50's wiring, PAF style (BB1/2), that are available all the time. Easy enough and able to be done cheaply these days. For their margins, cost should not be a factor in production.
On the Gibson designs:
Yeah - too many choices is bad for business. Oreo has the very same problem.
And Gibson very simply needs to have a core line of historic guitars that are long tenon, 50's wiring, PAF style (BB1/2), that are available all the time. Easy enough and able to be done cheaply these days. For their margins, cost should not be a factor in production.
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Innovation as a Business Model: There is a way to do it. Gibson has no idea what that is and it is obvious. This is not some mystery in 2018. They are consciously just pretty much half-asking it, and riding on their Icon status.
Innovation as a Business Model: There is a way to do it. Gibson has no idea what that is and it is obvious. This is not some mystery in 2018. They are consciously just pretty much half-asking it, and riding on their Icon status.
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
The article describes simple customer centric development that most industries have adopted to compete globally and most mass production guitar manufacturers already do well.
But Gibson has marched to their own drummer for so long that they haven't looked at other models... even when they are relatively easy and cleary profitable.
The ch11 grace period is short... Will be interesting to see if they wake up and thanks again for a quotable quote!
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Ace, very nice summary.
The article describes simple customer centric development that most industries have adopted to compete globally and most mass production guitar manufacturers already do well.
But Gibson has marched to their own drummer for so long that they haven't looked at other models... even when they are relatively easy and cleary profitable.
The ch11 grace period is short... Will be interesting to see if they wake up and thanks again for a quotable quote!
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justFred
Well-known member
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
It was obviously a very complicated situation...simply put: the company had three major issues
- it had expanded to cover every aspect of the aluminum industry from bauxite mining through transportation, processing and manufacturing every imaginable aluminum product;
-it offered extremely generous pension and medical benefits including paid medical for life;
-debt.
To survive they chose a core business, engineered products, that produced extruded products and one small very specialized forging plant. They divested themselves or shut down the rest.
They did away with existing retirement and medical plans and started over...retirees got slammed as well as long term vested employees....had to be done.
Debt holders including suppliers got slammed.
During restructuring they focused intensely on process improvement via Kaizen and six sigma programs.
As I said previously the result is a highly robust and successful company.
It was obviously a very complicated situation...simply put: the company had three major issues
- it had expanded to cover every aspect of the aluminum industry from bauxite mining through transportation, processing and manufacturing every imaginable aluminum product;
-it offered extremely generous pension and medical benefits including paid medical for life;
-debt.
To survive they chose a core business, engineered products, that produced extruded products and one small very specialized forging plant. They divested themselves or shut down the rest.
They did away with existing retirement and medical plans and started over...retirees got slammed as well as long term vested employees....had to be done.
Debt holders including suppliers got slammed.
During restructuring they focused intensely on process improvement via Kaizen and six sigma programs.
As I said previously the result is a highly robust and successful company.
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Fred, thanks so much for the background! You really make the point for processes.
We intentionally don't use 6 sigma terminology, but that's what these articles are describing... We work with small and medium businesses, so we have to simplify processes... Very few black belts.
But now that you bring it up, 6 sigma/lean has revolutionized manufacturing.
Most people think of guitars from the artisan perspective, there certainly is that aspect... Especially at boutique level.
However, Gibson competes against Yamaha, Ibi, and Fender and they are the kings of 6 sigma.
So Gibson has choice... Learn 6 sigma and compete, or pull out of mass production. This series is breaking 6 sigma into basics in hopes Gibson uses this grace period wisely...
Thanks again for a great case! I wouldn't have introduced 6 sigma otherwise.
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Fred, thanks so much for the background! You really make the point for processes.
We intentionally don't use 6 sigma terminology, but that's what these articles are describing... We work with small and medium businesses, so we have to simplify processes... Very few black belts.
But now that you bring it up, 6 sigma/lean has revolutionized manufacturing.
Most people think of guitars from the artisan perspective, there certainly is that aspect... Especially at boutique level.
However, Gibson competes against Yamaha, Ibi, and Fender and they are the kings of 6 sigma.
So Gibson has choice... Learn 6 sigma and compete, or pull out of mass production. This series is breaking 6 sigma into basics in hopes Gibson uses this grace period wisely...
Thanks again for a great case! I wouldn't have introduced 6 sigma otherwise.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Wow - DavidRagingMoron.....
Again; The guys you picked on that chops thread? FANTASTIC. But again - not a SHRED (<= see what I did there?) of Business sense.
Joe Bonamassa is the PERFECT front man for Blues Lawyers wanting to pay far-too-much for vintage type/style instruments!
DiMeola, McLaughlin, and the bunch of them haven't sold 8 guitars between them. (and I LOVE those guys!!!) Hell - Ace Frehley flat out sucks and he could sell Ukele's and make more money than every album and tour DiMeola etc. ever made. No one cares how GOOD the guy is. It's what he can SELL. I think that is called "business". as in the music BUSINESS, not MUSIC business.
Wow - DavidRagingMoron.....
Again; The guys you picked on that chops thread? FANTASTIC. But again - not a SHRED (<= see what I did there?) of Business sense.
Joe Bonamassa is the PERFECT front man for Blues Lawyers wanting to pay far-too-much for vintage type/style instruments!
DiMeola, McLaughlin, and the bunch of them haven't sold 8 guitars between them. (and I LOVE those guys!!!) Hell - Ace Frehley flat out sucks and he could sell Ukele's and make more money than every album and tour DiMeola etc. ever made. No one cares how GOOD the guy is. It's what he can SELL. I think that is called "business". as in the music BUSINESS, not MUSIC business.
L
Little Pigbacon
Guest
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Two words: Incredible. Universe.
Two words: Incredible. Universe.
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Yeah, maybe time to say thanks for some useful feedback on Gibson next steps (ugly guitars image will be used
feel free to message additional input, and keep watch for 3rd article!
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Yeah, maybe time to say thanks for some useful feedback on Gibson next steps (ugly guitars image will be used
feel free to message additional input, and keep watch for 3rd article!Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
B
Ben1962
Guest
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Sounds good. To be blunt, I would rather listen to Joe tho. Joe's 1st live album is awesome BTW. When he used to showoff more
Sounds good. To be blunt, I would rather listen to Joe tho. Joe's 1st live album is awesome BTW. When he used to showoff more
Gtrjunior
New member
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
It was inevitable at some point. The second Joe B was brought up it was all downhill.
It was inevitable at some point. The second Joe B was brought up it was all downhill.
Gtrjunior
New member
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
No offense intended David.
Your playing on these tracks is perfectly cromulent, but to flat out say you can do better than Joe B is quite a stretch.
Again, no offense intended but Joe B, you’re not.
And for that matter neither am I. (But I never claimed to be either.)
No offense intended David.
Your playing on these tracks is perfectly cromulent, but to flat out say you can do better than Joe B is quite a stretch.
Again, no offense intended but Joe B, you’re not.
And for that matter neither am I. (But I never claimed to be either.)
DavidRavenMoon
New member
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
“Cromulent”? Lol
What you’re hearing is a solo in the context of a song. It was initially improvised in one take, then I learned it and double tracked it. It’s basically a punk song. But my background is progressive rock and fusion. I can do more than that, but that’s not what music is about.
I’ve heard what Joe can do. I’m not impressed. I can do better. Even at blues, which a loathe. Lots of people can play circles around him. I always assumed he was popular because he’s so average. Lol
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“Cromulent”? Lol
What you’re hearing is a solo in the context of a song. It was initially improvised in one take, then I learned it and double tracked it. It’s basically a punk song. But my background is progressive rock and fusion. I can do more than that, but that’s not what music is about.
I’ve heard what Joe can do. I’m not impressed. I can do better. Even at blues, which a loathe. Lots of people can play circles around him. I always assumed he was popular because he’s so average. Lol
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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely
Two Kaiser plants were here in Spokane, biggest building I've ever been in. I think it was 110 acres! They had some rampant labor problems though, I think Gibson's debt problems are better suited for bankruptcy. Hopefully the job losses won't be as bad as Kaisers.
Two Kaiser plants were here in Spokane, biggest building I've ever been in. I think it was 110 acres! They had some rampant labor problems though, I think Gibson's debt problems are better suited for bankruptcy. Hopefully the job losses won't be as bad as Kaisers.
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