How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

A few comments on this:

1. The Volute is a BAD idea. What the Volute ACTUALLY does is prevent the neck from breaking on the neck, where it is relatively easy to fix. Instead, a guitar dropped with sufficient force to break the neck with a volute, will actually track the HEADSTOCK itself. This is a very difficult fix and makes tuning very unstable.

That’s nonsense. The volute makes that area stronger. Track the headstock? What’s that supposed to mean?

Here’s the problem with the way they build necks; they are bandsawing the headstock angle from a solid piece of wood. This causes the grain to run out, so you have very short grain, which is weak.

A better way would be to use a scarf joint, so the grain runs parallel to the face of the head.

That WILL NOT break if you drop it. I know because that’s how I build my necks with angled back heads.

So a volute is a good compromise. There are zero disadvantages to a volute.

Problem number two is the large truss rod nut, which necessitates the removal of too much wood in that area.

A volute would also fix that problem by adding some wood to the area.

Plus they look classy.


2. And then there are myths and facts. It is easy to find people who say "Gibson necks are like toothpicks!!! They be break-in' when you put them in the stand too hard!!!" I call BS plain and simple. Yes - there are thin necked 60's LP's/SG's that have suffered horrific neck breaks. But I'm gonna bet that they are not any more prone to this than any other guitar with a set neck. However - the baseball bat necks? Pretty damn sturdy. The 70's necks? 3 piece maple?!?!?!?! Indestructable. I have played for almost 40 years and have dropped mine, and seen a lot of Les Pauls. I don't know of one actual neck break event of anyone I know with a Les Paul. And certainly not anymore than any other guitar brand.

You may be a fine luthier with great skills - but I think your perception of reality is skewed from seeing only broken guitars. There are millions and millions of Les Pauls floating around out there that are just fine.

Because no one dropped those guitars.

The ONLY guitars I have had to glue the heads back on have been Les Pauls and a Pedulla MVP. They use volutes, and it’s a maple neck, but it’s a band sawn head.

I used to own an ‘81 Les Paul standard. It had a maple neck with a volute. My crazy girlfriend at the time decided to throw the guitar from the living room to the kitchen! It landed on its head.

But the head did not crack in the usual place. Instead the entire neck popped out of the body. It did sustain a hairline crack from the nut, up the side of the neck. It was an easy repair.

So why didn’t the head crack? Because it had a volute and it was a maple neck, which is stronger than mahogany.

I own about 9 guitars. I’ve been a working musician since I was 16. I’ve dropped lots of guitars in the past 47 years. None of them broke the way Les Pauls do. It’s a flawed design. They fixed it once, but going back to the lack of a volute, along with their archaic truss rod system has left that part of the neck very weak.

If I were Gibson, I’d switch to a modern dual action rod, which removes less wood from the neck, and bring the volute back. I’d also use a scarf joint. You’d never see another broken head.

This is one of my basses. Besides the volute the head is attached with a scarf joint that’s hidden under the back veneer. One of these basses sustained a fall, and the very tip of the headstock broke off. It was purely cosmetic and the neck had no damage. It’s just a better engineered joint. And it’s been used for many decades by luthiers.

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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

DavidRM, you have become quite the bore...no offense intended...constructive criticism you know...
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Sounds good. To be blunt, I would rather listen to Joe tho. Joe's 1st live album is awesome BTW. When he used to showoff more

Some people like bland, unimaginative music that all sounds the same. I’m ok with that. [emoji6]


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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

On the Gibson designs:

Yeah - too many choices is bad for business. Oreo has the very same problem.

And Gibson very simply needs to have a core line of historic guitars that are long tenon, 50's wiring, PAF style (BB1/2), that are available all the time. Easy enough and able to be done cheaply these days. For their margins, cost should not be a factor in production.

Y'all need to try the 4th of July Oreos with the Poprocks in the filling! Effin amazing!
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Let's keep this on topic for this thread. You can debate the merits of Joe B somewhere else.
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Gibson has battled QC issues for 2 decades.

That’s inexcusable in that price range.
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Some people like bland, unimaginative music that all sounds the same. I’m ok with that. [emoji6]


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How you even play guitar with one hand? The other one is always patting your own back. I love prog sir, but I dont have to brag about it
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

How you even play guitar with one hand? The other one is always patting your own back. I love prog sir, but I dont have to brag about it

Nothing in that comment was about me. Just saying I don’t find anything he does interesting.

I posted the guitar virtuosos I admire, like Alan Holdsworth, John McLaughln, Robert Fripp, Al DiMeola, Shawn Lane, Adrian Belew, Frank Zappa... etc. they are/were pushing the boundaries of guitar, not regurgitating blues riffs. Others said the same thing.

I just pointed out that technique wise I’m no slouch.

Now him constantly saying he’s the “worlds greatest” is obnoxious. And not a tiny bit true. Why don’t you call him out on that?




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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

I can do better.

Bottom line: I hear a lot of talk, and not much "wow" factor. You need to show up and throw down Arpeggos from Hell or something like that or forever wear the "Big Talker" crown.

YOU are the one who spouted off. Now put your chops where your mouth is! If you can. Which, at the moment - no one believes, because quite honestly, you haven't shown us anything impressive. This isn't about taste a fit. It's a cutting contest b!tch, and you showed up with a butter knife so far!

:lmao:
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

T
This is one of my basses. Besides the volute the head is attached with a scarf joint that’s hidden under the back veneer. One of these basses sustained a fall, and the very tip of the headstock broke off. It was purely cosmetic and the neck had no damage. It’s just a better engineered joint. And it’s been used for many decades by luthiers.

Yet for some strange reason, a ton of us here own Gibsons, and nobody owns anything you made. Interesting.

Surprising a guy with chops greater than Joe B (allegedly) and that builds guitars better than everyone and their archaic designs (supposedly) isn't more famous.

Why do you think that is? You are pretty smart guy who knows a lot...
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Gibson has battled QC issues for 2 decades.

That’s inexcusable in that price range.
Yes, that's a big part of the problem... Pricing that exceeds value, killing the dealer network, they have dug a deep hole that also swollows up the good stuff...

This article focuses on process to get refocused on customer needs, but the next focuses on messaging...

If they do the refocusing work, I think they could get a lot of empathy with a "we fudged up" message, followed by "we really want to make you happy" and here's the proof with high value competitive product.

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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

I may throw my Value, Six Sigma Quality, and Voice of the Customer article up tomorrow....
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Yeah, think throwing up is where this has come to...shut 'er down...one last thing, every Gibson I have owned is worth more or sold for more than I paid for it...lucky????
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

... every Gibson I have owned is worth more or sold for more than I paid for it...lucky????
Fred, I don't think you are lucky...I think you are smart.

Gibson has made (and still makes) wonderful instruments- My early 60s LP SG is the most articulate, easy playing SG I have ever touched. But I also know a lot of people who moved away from Gibson because of quality issues, cost and simply finding better competitive instruments for the $.

So players who have experience can sort through new and used Gibsons and find great instruments and I think that's part of the reason that we have 2 'camps' moving in opposite directions-

In general, those who have great Gibsons and haven't experienced the problems tend to see Gibson as perfect... the ultimate American brand. There's nothing wrong, so don't monkey with the machine.

At the other end of the spectrum, the "I left Gibson for other brands" group tends to throw the baby out with the bathwater- Because they had a bad experience, they discount all of the good stuff that Gibson still has.

Of course, the truth is in the middle and that's what this series is about- Gibson has a lot to offer... but they have a lot of work to do if they want to be around another 100 years, and both groups will have to refocus a bit for things to work out.

Thanks again, I've enjoyed your comments!
 
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Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Nothing in that comment was about me. Just saying I don’t find anything he does interesting.

I posted the guitar virtuosos I admire, like Alan Holdsworth, John McLaughln, Robert Fripp, Al DiMeola, Shawn Lane, Adrian Belew, Frank Zappa... etc. they are/were pushing the boundaries of guitar, not regurgitating blues riffs. Others said the same thing.

I just pointed out that technique wise I’m no slouch.

Now him constantly saying he’s the “worlds greatest” is obnoxious. And not a tiny bit true. Why don’t you call him out on that?




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My last comment on this. I have no problem with people not really liking Joe, its music, its not some contest. As an older guy, I love guys that can mix minor and major penta stuff. It is an art, they are the guys who paved the way to where we are now. But you dont have to like it, thats fine. The problem is the dewshery of thinking you are somehow better than those that may like something different than you. Blancet statements like "he sux" are so childish and IMO are maybe why we never heard of you and bought your stuff. I didnt mean to diminish your skills, so why do people feel the need to insult others? Its a turnoff and dewsherry at its worst. Now I will play my POS Gibson Les Paul knowing how great it is and why I love it
 
Re: How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

Yet for some strange reason, a ton of us here own Gibsons, and nobody owns anything you made. Interesting.

Surprising a guy with chops greater than Joe B (allegedly) and that builds guitars better than everyone and their archaic designs (supposedly) isn't more famous.

Why do you think that is? You are pretty smart guy who knows a lot...

Is there something wrong with you? lol

I’m stating known facts about guitar building. That and stating that I don’t think Joe is that special seems to have your panties in a knot!

Lots of people have better chops than Joe. Just because you don’t is no reason to get defensive.

You don’t even have your own photo as an avatar. I guess you don’t think too highly of yourself?

BTW, I’ve met Ace... he was friends with my cousin. Have you?


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How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

My last comment on this. I have no problem with people not really liking Joe, its music, its not some contest. As an older guy, I love guys that can mix minor and major penta stuff. It is an art, they are the guys who paved the way to where we are now. But you dont have to like it, thats fine. The problem is the dewshery of thinking you are somehow better than those that may like something different than you. Blancet statements like "he sux" are so childish and IMO are maybe why we never heard of you and bought your stuff. I didnt mean to diminish your skills, so why do people feel the need to insult others? Its a turnoff and dewsherry at its worst. Now I will play my POS Gibson Les Paul knowing how great it is and why I love it

It’s “d o u c h e r y”

Lots of people don’t like Joe. Mixing pentatonic scales isn’t an art. It’s what every rock guitarists has done for the past 60 years.

I’m an old timer myself. So I’ve heard everything he plays a million times before. If you like that stuff, fine. But are you getting paid to defend him?

As far as my playing, I started off saying I don’t think he’s special. Then people have to start the childish bull **** amounting to “lets hear you then.” So I posted something. Lots of us have been playing a long time. We might not be famous but we are as good as anyone. I can pick a handful of local players I know who are better than half the people out there, yet you never heard of them. That’s just the way the music biz is.

As far as defending Gibsons, are they paying you? Do you pose in the mirror with it? It’s just a freakin’ guitar. Don’t wrap your whole identity around it. It’s well known that Les Pauls suffer more headstock breaks than any other model. That’s a fact. And it’s because of several poor design decisions. Even Les Paul himself complained about Gibson. They screwed up his patented bridge design and the LP Custom was supposed to have the maple cap, not the standard.


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How to save Gibson- Part II- There's a lot of hope if they use Ch 11 wisely

and nobody owns anything you made. Interesting.
..

Oh yeah. Forget about this. You sure about that?

This guy owned a guitar I built. You might have heard of him? Then he bought one for Billy Gibbons. I built the one as well.
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More recently... didn’t build the bass, but I made the pickups. This was Imagine Dragons on the Grammy’s a few years bank.

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And Clammy from Exciter. Made the pickups for his custom Moser basses.

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I can go on.

Just because it’s pretty. Lol.
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Now what were you saying?

My preference in music is subjective and my own opinion. But I know about lutherie. I’ve been around a while.



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