I *hate* micing up cabs

[krankguitarist]

Honestly, today, I just spent a good eight hours in the studio with my other guitar player trying to find a good amp/speaker/microphone combination.

I had two cabs and two amps to choose from, and a bunch of mics. I had a Mesa Roadster, a Mesa Mark IV, an Ear Candy Buzzbomb 2x12, and a Marshall MF400 4X12.

The mics: Shure SM57, Beta 57, Audix i5, Sennheiser E609 silver, as well as a sterling audio ST66.

And I *could not* get a decent tone out of any of the lot to save my life! I tried single-mic setups, multiple mic setups, using the ST66 as a room mic, etc, etc, nothing worked! It all amounted to a sound that was either woofy and muddy, too nasal, had serious phase issues, or just all around sucked.

So, for the demo we decided to do the old faithful route, my palmer PDI-09. We're gonna try it out with an SM57 on the marshall cab too, but I dunno how it's gonna turn out.

I seriously *hate* micing up cabs.

 

[LoFiBrian]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

I find that just settling on your favorite mic all around and then just trying a few different placements with that one mic usually you can find a good sound. really sitting down and spending more time with all the different varibles usually is a crapshoot and you get fatigued real fast.

it shouldnt be so complicated...I like the 609 on a directly on the grill of a straight front closed back 4x12 sounds great for distorted stuff. . but i prefer a 57 for anything cleaner and less middy. I really like a blackface type amp with a 57 back just a few inches off axis to the cone/dustcap.

anytime i ever tried my Rode NT1A on the other speaker/s just for a different tonal option i just stuck with my old trusty selection.

thought the Rode as a room mic albeit for phase issues was awesome!

maybe simplfy it and you might get some awesome tones tracked?

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

Honestly, today, I just spent a good eight hours in the studio with my other guitar player trying to find a good amp/speaker/microphone combination.

I had two cabs and two amps to choose from, and a bunch of mics. I had a Mesa Roadster, a Mesa Mark IV, an Ear Candy Buzzbomb 2x12, and a Marshall MF400 4X12.

The mics: Shure SM57, Beta 57, Audix i5, Sennheiser E609 silver, as well as a sterling audio ST66.

And I *could not* get a decent tone out of any of the lot to save my life! I tried single-mic setups, multiple mic setups, using the ST66 as a room mic, etc, etc, nothing worked! It all amounted to a sound that was either woofy and muddy, too nasal, had serious phase issues, or just all around sucked.

So, for the demo we decided to do the old faithful route, my palmer PDI-09. We're gonna try it out with an SM57 on the marshall cab too, but I dunno how it's gonna turn out.

I seriously *hate* micing up cabs.

Did you try placing the mic to the center of the grill? Not to the speaker, but right in the center, straight between the four speakers?

 

[LoFiBrian]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

and what is that going to do besides sound like garbage?

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

So much can happen in the mixing. Just get the best tone you can into the computer/recorder and deal with it later.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

A lot of folks like multi-micing instruments, but I'm more of a "keeping it simple" kinda guy. I hate messing with the phases between mics unless I absolutely have to (more often it creates more headaches than it's worth probably just due to my inexperience). I can't really complain with what I've been getting with just one mic for most applications, so I'll keep doing that until I find myself in a situation where I'll need to experiment further.

Here's a couple of things to try:

Turn up the volume on your amp and put your thumb over a cable end (with the other end going into the amp). You should get some hum. Put your ears up to your speaker cabinet and find where the hum is the loudest, mark it because that's a good spot to focus your mic.

Over time, I've found I'm not as crazy about the SM57 as I once was. Certain setups/sounds it works great (especially heavier music), but I like more open sounds personally.

If you're looking for more lowend, take a dynamic mic and shove it close the the cabinet. Obviously, the further away you are, the more of the room you're going to get in. So if you're like me recording in a basement, you'll have more natural reverb the further from the source you are. If you want a brighter sound, focus it directly towards the center of the speaker. If you want a warmer sound, move it further to the sides.

I'm a big fan of the Sennheiser MD-421 for guitar cabinets. I've managed to dial it in so it sounds pretty much identical to what I'm hearing in the room. They aren't very expensive mics and they're also very good on toms (some even use them for vocal mics), so they're worth having in your mic locker for those uses alone.

Also, bear in mind that with a lot of amps, the direct recorded sound isn't always the most flattering. It's amazing what a little bit of processing can do for a sound. Throw some compression on there, some reverb, a tape saturation plugin, etc. Play around with the EQ. If it's bright, either cut the upper frequencies or boost the lows. If it's dark or boomy, cut some lows or add some highs. Yes, it's easier to not have to mess around with processing to get your recorded sound right, but depending on the voicing of your amplifier and the voicing of your mics, there may need to be some compromising somewhere.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

I wanna get a MD421, but don't quite have the cash on hand. Could rent one, but it'd cost about 60 or so odd dollars for a week or so. Not too bad but considering that I've only got 40 dollars in the bank I can't quite afford it.

I tried a few combinations with the i5 and the e609 silver, but nothing seemed to come out. The i5 is a little bit of an improvement over the sm57 in the high frequencies, but I'm finding that the SM57 is better all-around. The i5 imparts a sort of hollow sound to the mix, and I can't say that I like it very much. The e609 silver is good for cleans I find, but doesn't quite hold it's own with heavy rhythms. The cleans we've already taken care of, and I gotta say they sound pretty good. I used my roadster and my 1968 fender showman reverb in stereo for the cleans, as well as an optical compressor I built. Sounds killer!

The main problem seems to be that we're recording in a relatively small room. That, and I'd really like a sennheiser MD 421 MK II, or...hell...a royer 121 would be nice! But I don't have the money for either of those.

As far as this demo goes, I'm pretty sure that the Palmer PDI-09 will take care of most of the rhythms as long as there's some eq added...I'm gonna have our own Virtual Kevorkian mix and master our *real* demo, meaning, the one we're working on right now. He's done some pretty cool **** with his own setup. I just gotta say that I don't quite have the equipment, nor the experience, nor the environment to get a good heavy guitar sound out of my band's studio. The room's too small, the mic's aren't doing a good enough job. With the PDI-09 and an SM57 I can get close enough....but not quite to perfection. Sheesh. I wish I had more money.

A royer 121 would kick ass. As would a nice room to record in. As well as an adjacent monitor room. I hate being poor.

I've done some research too...I've watched this video, and read almost all of this article. Still, I feel like I've got a lot to learn.

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

and what is that going to do besides sound like garbage?

Ok Mr. Jimmy Page of the local riverbed. If I am not mistaken, but that is the technique used by Michael Wagner, and I am sure even if its not I've learned about it here from somebody who knows what they are talking about. Thanks for the fantastically informative input.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

Ok Mr. Jimmy Page of the local riverbed. If I am not mistaken, but that is the technique used by Michael Wagner, and I am sure even if its not I've learned about it here from somebody who knows what they are talking about. Thanks for the fantastically informative input.

ooh, burn!

I tried pointing the SM57 straight at the center of the dustcap, that that tone was just too bright for me. Especially with the rectifier. God****.

All the other mics sounded like poop there too. I'm thinking that the room itself was a big problem in the recordings that I did with my guitarist today. It was incredibly ****ty. Small rooms and standing waves suck ass.

I found that my Emi Swamp Thangs weren't quite cut out for the recording job I was going for...the celestion G12k-100's in my marshall cab were quite a bit more adept at making some crazy heavy tones. Miced up, at least. I wish I had something that could translate the thump and presence of my swampy's onto a digital recording. This stuff is freaking difficult.

No fighting in my threads though, OK? Be cool like fonzi.

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

You know, just two days ago, my friend was raving about this thing he bought. Its basically a mic, it records the the faults of the room, and then it corrects the faults with a software on the recording in the very last stage of processing. I can find out if you want.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

You know, just two days ago, my friend was raving about this thing he bought. Its basically a mic, it records the the faults of the room, and then it corrects the faults with a software on the recording in the very last stage of processing. I can find out if you want.

I've seen that! In sweetwater's magazine at least. Interesting concept at the very least! I wonder how effective it is in practice.

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

I've seen that! In sweetwater's magazine at least. Interesting concept at the very least! I wonder how effective it is in practice.

My friend is a protools geek with a two year degree in recording engineering and production from San Francisco State, he has been playing for about 22-23 years and he is huge classic rock/ metal head. I've been in a band with him for 3 years. He is very good. He says its fantastic. This one he did in less than 16 hours, in three evenings at his home. This is just to give you an idea what his level is.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=147646

 

[Vetteboy]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

From the sound of it, without reading to deeply...I'd say you're definitely overcomplicating things.

I've never once, in all my studio time, recorded my amp with anything more than a single mic. 99% of the time it's a single SM57 at a 45* angle pointed just off-center of the speaker cone, on my Ampeg 2x12 open-back combo. The times I use my Univox combo it's the same deal.

It took a while to find the 'sweet spot'. And I ended up putting the amp in another room with a really long cable, listening to it through headphones, while a friend moved the mic around. When I liked the sound I told him to stop, and I went in the other room and took a picture of the mic placement. Now I don't even think about it...I can have the mic in that spot and get any sound I want either through the amp EQ or post-processing.

I also record very loud. Even with a solid-state amp. Part of it's psychological in that I want to 'feel' the amp while I'm playing, and part of it is that it reduces the background and room noise that goes into the mic.

YMMV.

 

[Rich_T]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

This month's Sound on Sound has a good article on recording loud guitars through a 4x12, check it out if you can get it over there.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

From the sound of it, without reading to deeply...I'd say you're definitely overcomplicating things..

That's pretty much the conclusion that I came to as well. I tried the multi-mic setup because the original combo I was using for the song (the roadster and ear candy) just wasn't getting anywhere near "usable" tone with just one mic. So, I added more, since I had read that Jens Bogren had done that a lot when recording opeth/katatonia/etc...and I friggin loved the results he got. But for me...

It's too many mics, too much stuff going on. I've got a pair of sennheiser HD280's that I'm using to position the mics, but when I get up close to the cab like that there's simply too much leakage from the amp through the headphones. I set the mic, stand back, and get a nasal, harsh, crappy sound that was fine as long as I was having my head hammered by a 4X12.

We're recording pretty loud too. I mean...REALLY loud. It gets a little fatiguing on your ears after a while.

I'd really like to get good at this, because I know that if I mic this stuff up correctly it'll sound much better than using my PDI-09 straight. It's almost too easy getting a good, usable tone from the PDI-09 though. When we left yesterday it wasn't sounding too bad with the Palmer and the SM57 on one of the speakers...maybe a bit nasal, but better than anything else we had done.

I do think that part of the problem is the room...it's not very well soundproofed, and it's not very big. Filled with a ton of equipment too. I'm gonna bring some foam in tomorrow and see if that makes things any better.

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

Its never been a particular difficult process for me but it hasn't been without its frustrations.

1) Turn the distortion down by at least half from your "live" settings. Its not needed. Too much gain is the biggest offense I see when working with other players
2) It takes experience to do up front, but keep in mind what the sound needs to be in the mix. Many guys futz and futz to get this huge low end sound only to have the mix engineer remove it to allow for a bass guitar in the mix.
3) As for actual mic placement, put a 57 halfway between the speaker edge and the dust cap angled in towards the dust cap. For more bass move towards the edge. For more treble move towards the dust cap.
4) For my e906 I use the same general guidelines except I don't angle the mic.
5) If I use a condenser or other room mic, its about 3-6 ft away from the amp and 1-4 ft off the ground. I haven't done this in a while
6) Ultimately the "fullness" etc you hear on a record has to do with the double tracking/layering of different sounds/panning etc

 

[SpaceShipOne]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

No idea if this is what you're doing but I have had the same experience. I noticed that getting a good sound while you can still hear the amp doesn't work well. Putting it somewhere you can barely hear it and then listening through monitors helped me tremendously as you can check every mic's sound in real time and move the one's you don't like the sound of. I used 4 mics on the last project I did and used this technique, took 30 minutes to set up!

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

I tried pointing the SM57 straight at the center of the dustcap, that that tone was just too bright for me. Especially with the rectifier. God****.

As was mentioned angle the mic at 45 degrees and move it towards the edge of the speaker. You can make some baffles or use a moving blanket over the amp and mic to kill the room. The main thing in getting a good tone is dialing in the amp and making sure the guitar is set up well with new strings good pickups etc. It really isn't rocket science but you have to start with the basics being right.

 

[DankStar]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

anymore I just throw a mic in front of a cone, maybe move it a bit to reduce harshness and hit go. let the listeners suffer I say! 10 people will love it, 10 will hate it, and about 10 million will never hear it.

 

[Hellion]

Re: I *hate* micing up cabs

As was mentioned angle the mic at 45 degrees and move it towards the edge of the speaker. You can make some baffles or use a moving blanket over the amp and mic to kill the room. The main thing in getting a good tone is dialing in the amp and making sure the guitar is set up well with new strings, good pickups, etc. It really isn't rocket science, but you have to start with the basics being right.

I've been doing the same thing for years and have gotten decent results, though I will readily admit that I'm NOT Jimmy Page. However, I usually start with the SM57 about halfway down the cone and move out if I need a little more bass response. What Joe Walsh taught me (not literally, but through his interviews) is that anything lower than 500 Hz is garbage on lead guitar, 'cuz there's other stuff competing for those wavelengths. Whatever distortion settings you're using, back it off a couple of notches (I know, it bothered me, too, at first) and record as dry as you can stand it. Let the mixing geniuses do their work first.