I have discovered the Epiphone Pickups have a lot of wax!!!

[voggin]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Wax is used to hold in place anything that might move and vibrate, and cause feedback (pole pieces, magnet, cover, and wires). It only takes a small amount of wax to accomplish that. There is no earthly need to bury the entire PU in wax. That's overkill, akin to using a slegdehammer to swat mosquitoes.

Besides the wax issue, Epi's and most other Asian PU's, are not made with the same quality of materials, nor with the winding secrets that have taken American PU makers decades to develop. You get a PU that generates an electrical signal, that's about it. If you want tone quality, definition, and depth, then you pay the extra money for American or European made PU's. PU's are not the thing to scrimp on.

Thanks for clearing that up. As I said, the Prs cheapos weren't covered in wax, and, in fact, weren't bad pickups, just not great. I bought the guitar with the idea of swapping the pickups because it was so cheap, but the stock ones were okay, you know? You certainly could have played live with them. In fact, the bridge pickup had a rather unique, wah-like voice, and if I had a hundred guitars, I may have kept it in there, but since I don't, I went with sd's.

I certainly don't expect 400 dollar korean guitars to have top line components, but the Prs stock were at least competent. I can't understand why Gibson would allow such messy stuff to go out under their name.

 

[Aceman]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

I was skeptical at first. And for the record, I beleive there are myriad issues with Epi pups.

That was a bit excessive though...

 

[Ricochet]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Anyone who can hear "excess wax" please raise your hand...

Epiphone has made many different pickup models over the span of decades and made many improvements along the way. While not comparing favourable to your favourite bullteek wind or Duncmore, I think most of the broadbrushed generalisations made for Epis current PU offerings are really outdated sentiments or hearsay 90s leftovers...

 

[copperheadroads]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Do anyone think that wax outside the coil has any bearing on tone ......

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

The only effect (other than the intended squeal dampening of course) of the brick is it might dampen the tone-shaping effect of the wood some. No small thing, but it won't kill the character of the pickup itself, just the effect the wood might have on it.

The real key is how thick the wax is on the initial dip and how long it's left in the pot.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

While not comparing favourable to your favourite bullteek wind or Duncmore, I think most of the broadbrushed generalisations made for Epis current PU offerings are really outdated sentiments or hearsay 90s leftovers...

On the contrary, the info is as fresh and accurate as last saturday.

Epi p'ups suck, their design is bad, their realisation is bad, the materials are bad and last but by no means least, the windings: they are the worst!

And don't get me started on the quality of the harness... I get at least a customer a week that has any kind of conectivity problem with their Epis, most of them are under 18 months old.

Your Honor, I rest my case! :naughty:

 

[blueman335]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

I get at least a customer a week that has any kind of conectivity problem with their Epis, most of them are under 18 months old.

What, your customers? They must start playing really young over there.

 

[Ricochet]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

LtK ...I hardly think we have a case here and if we did, I wouldn't make a very good advocate for the defence. I pretty much toss the pickups once a new Epi comes in...:cool2:

I guess I'm saying not all Epi pickups are created equal. Some of them have even been "good enough" for some... The fact that I'm not one of them, is besides the point.
I find it weird and suspect that with 20 different PUs(my estimation, give or take) over the course of 2 decades the tonal reviews of Epi PUs have been pretty much identical in their terminology to slag them off. To me, that doesn't add up no?
Admittedly I haven't heard them all, so I'm counting on guys like you(who seem to know what they're talking about), to give a proper and fair assessment of a pickup that is part of a guitar build to cost, not an aftermarket offering...

Now here's one for you to prosecute... If all Epiphones had Gibson pickups. Would it hurt Gibson sales in their cheaper marketsegment, like LP Studios?
Ponder some more, would there be a distinct possibility Gibson really doesn't want Epi to have better pickups? :naughty:

 

[blueman335]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Now here's one for you to prosecute... If all Epiphones had Gibson pickups. Would it hurt Gibson sales in their cheaper marketsegment, like LP Studios?
Ponder some more, would there be a distinct possibility Gibson really doesn't want Epi to have better pickups? :naughty:

Smart man. It's all about keeping Epi from taking away Gibson sales. It's all one big family. There's enough profit margin in Epi's to put in Gibson PU's, or they could charge $50 more per guitar for them; after all, they buy the materials in bulk. The actual manufacturing cost of Gibson PU's is low.

Put Gibson PU's in Epi's, and a lot of players aren't going to be able to tell them apart from Gibsons by sound alone (some guys will be able to, many won't), and that opens a whole can of worms for Gibson. But, there's more and more $500 guitars with American-made PU's in them, and Gibson/Epi is getting pushed in a corner, having to compete with that.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

There's enough profit margin in Epi's to put in Gibson PU's, or they could charge $50 more per guitar for them; after all, they buy the materials in bulk. The actual manufacturing cost of Gibson PU's is low.

I'm not addressing anything else in this thread, but one thing to point out, there are tremendous savings to OEM manufacturers for using pickups that are made in the same country as the guitar. Shipping, duties, logistics, etc. It costs a lot more than just the increased price of the pickup to use a USA pickup in an Asian made guitar. Thats part of the benefit to these manufacturers when using Duncan Designed in their lower price guitars. Many EMG-HZ's are made overseas now for OEM purposes. In our case we use "Duncan Designed" as the differentiator. If a pickup says "Seymour Duncan" it was made in Santa Barbara.

That said, guitar companies who make guitars in Asia and do use USA made pickups should be applauded. That takes extra discipline, and it means they are investing in tone and value, because its easier just to use pickups made in those factories. This sentiment goes for guitars with EMG's and Dimarzios as well. I'm not being biased toward guitars with Seymour Duncans.

Also if you want an Epi with Seymour Duncans don't forget the Epiphone Slash model!

 

[cream]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

no dude i love them

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

That's overkill, akin to using a slegdehammer to swat mosquitoes.

But I'm not killing them just for them to die, I have to use the sledgehammer for the revenge factor.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Now here's one for you to prosecute... If all Epiphones had Gibson pickups. Would it hurt Gibson sales in their cheaper marketsegment, like LP Studios?

No, a Gibson will ALWAYS be a Gibson. And all those "cheaper" Studio Tributes are limited runs anyway. People buy Gibson for the "bragging factor", not just the sound.

Ponder some more, would there be a distinct possibility Gibson really doesn't want Epi to have better pickups? :naughty:

Gibson is using Epiphone to experiment in cheap materials. FX, there's a bridge only p'up offered in just one model which it should be a clone of their BurstBucker 3, just made in China. My take is their american production p'ups will soon be made with Asian materials and even wound in Asia.

I must say that Epi is getting out some sweet guitars lately, like the Nighthawk. Or the ones in the archtop series. Or the Tak Matsumoto sig guitar.

One thing that bothers me to no end is the headstock used in LPs, SGs and semihollows... I find it uglier than sin.

OTOH, I really like their Custom models headstocks, like in the LPCs, SGCs and Sheratons, just the first three that came to mind.

My two pence worth of nothing :naughty:

 

[JeffB]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Not sure if ErikH has posted here yet, but several years ago, he uncovered his Epi pups and found the pup encased in wax like above. He made clips of before and after- definitely a difference- the pup actually sounded quite good after the de-waxing- about like a 498T but not as harsh in the high mids. Kinda sounded like the pup that people who are not happy with the Custom5 would want- same EQ with a bit more push in the mids.

IME, the Epi humbucking pups are hit or miss-some must not get much wax and sound pretty decent, but it's usually the bridge- the neck is nearly always a muddy mess.

FWIW- the Epiphone P-90s IME are pretty good across the board.

 

[Ricochet]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

For your amusement. Here are a couple of Epi pickups I disected. The generic ones on the left could be found on many '90s Epiphones, regardless of model. I've found these on LPs, Sheratons, etc. These particular ones were scavenged from a Joe Pass Broadway/Emperor.
Common trait, the bobbins were not screwed to the baseplate, and the guts were simply encased in the cover with copeous amounts of wax. A true soapbar! Note the oversized holes in the baseplate, the flimsy transparent bobbins(kinda cool tho) and the placeholder for both the screws and rods. Note 2: wiring is not stock, but changed for ewwil experiment purposes.

On the right the 57CH and HOTCH model commonly found on LPs and the like. Somewhere around 2001(I think) Epiphone changed to the more accepted method of making pickups(I hesitate to use the word traditional). Also saw an increase of different model humbuckers for different model guitars. Still pretty generous with the wax. I scraped most of it away for the pic.

 

[Ricochet]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

No, a Gibson will ALWAYS be a Gibson. And all those "cheaper" Studio Tributes are limited runs anyway. People buy Gibson for the "bragging factor", not just the sound.

Not sure what you mean? A LP Studio has been very much part of the Gibson lineup since the '80s, regardless of limited runs.
You need to stop hanging round at MLP...:cool2: People on a "Studio"-budget want the closest thing to a Les Paul in sound, looks, at the right price... If the price is fair, the headstock and what it says are irrelevent. That's probably why Gibson scrapped the Epihone Elitists in the first place.
Not saying it doesn't happen tho...

Gibson is using Epiphone to experiment in cheap materials. FX, there's a bridge only p'up offered in just one model which it should be a clone of their BurstBucker 3, just made in China. My take is their american production p'ups will soon be made with Asian materials and even wound in Asia.

Well, can't blame'm... The Probucker 3? Haven't heard it myself. I'm sure they'd love to.
Both my USA GOTW Gibsons have been annointed with Ping hardware(MIC but owned by Gotoh Japan), and one of them has pickups which carry no markings but I'm 99% sure they're Asian. Kow tow and smell the coffee, my friend.

 

[Kam]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

That pickup pictured on the left up there looks exactly like the pickups I pulled out of my Jim Deacon Les Paul copy.

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

I bet it still fed back !!!!

 

[ErikH]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Not sure if ErikH has posted here yet, but several years ago, he uncovered his Epi pups and found the pup encased in wax like above. He made clips of before and after- definitely a difference- the pup actually sounded quite good after the de-waxing- about like a 498T but not as harsh in the high mids. Kinda sounded like the pup that people who are not happy with the Custom5 would want- same EQ with a bit more push in the mids.

IME, the Epi humbucking pups are hit or miss-some must not get much wax and sound pretty decent, but it's usually the bridge- the neck is nearly always a muddy mess.

FWIW- the Epiphone P-90s IME are pretty good across the board.

Yup. I still have pics somewhere of that ordeal. They're in a thread somewhere too. That was a messy de-waxing but yeah, there was a noticeable difference in them. I was able to tell right away when I played the guitar with the band. More open, responsive. Sounded like a good pickup should. Even with the covers back on with less wax, they sounded better.

Upgrading pickups in the Epi's is viable option but if someone can't do that right away, de-waxing the pickups is another viable option that'll improve the sound.

 

[DreX]

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

Re: I have discovered why the Epiphone Pickups suck!!!

I've come across this thread a few times in Google searches about pickups and wax potting, people claiming a reason / the reason cheap humbuckers sound muffled or lifeless or whatever is because they "drown them in wax", so I was not expecting to find enough wax to make one of those small restaurant candles when I removed the covers from the fine, USA made DiMarzio Air Classics

so it seems to me the reason stock Epiphone pickups are so lacking in teh toanal qualities has become a little less clear once again.