i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

[hermetico]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

@hermetico please... I have designed my guitar, and in fact, build and play it. its nothing like a strat.more of a better less paul.

Nothing wrong. As I said, get what best works for you but, please, don't call stupid designs that doesn't perfectly suit your needs.

Sseriously, from the ERGONOMICS point of view, the strato is way more ergonomic than a LP.
Even an Explorer (specially), a Flying V, a Firebird or a SG are more ergnomic than a LP!.
LP design was based in pure classic guitars, which were designed to be played sit down on a chair!.
Strato was designed to be played in any position (you can check it, sit down, standing up, in any position), and specially hunging from your neck.

 

[blueman335]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Funny, the Strat is the only guitar I can look at that still looks like it's from the future. Leo and co. got waaaaay more right than they got wrong.

It's all about what you're used to and what design features you prefer. Not everyone cares for their feel or the sound. Don't forget that in the early 1950's, guitar manufacturers were horrified at the new lows in design and luthiery that Fender set in the name of cost-cutting. The public has since gotten accustomed to them. Passionate as players are about their favorites, there is no 'one-size-fits-all' guitar. Every design has it fans and detractors, which is as it should be; we're not robots. True, Strats have become the most-often used symbol of the electric guitar (in large part because it's silhouette is easy to tell apart from an acoustic guitar), which would please Leo, as he designed them to be cheap to produce so every player could afford one. Looking at the pricing of current American-made models, it would seem that the Fender corporation does not embrace the concept with equal fervor. Of course, 'affordable guitars for the working man' is a concept that Gibson threw out the window a long time ago. With today's modern manufacturing methods and larger production runs, a Les Paul Std doesn't cost that much more to make than a Strat. Nor does a LP Custom cost that much more to make than a Std. The stockholders would seem to be at least as important as the players.

 

[hermetico]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

but you are missing my point. I am viewing it purely academic. cancelling out all popular connotations. sure, many guitars are based on a strat, but they are improved versions. isn't that my whole point? a strat in its basic shape lacks some features. the bridge is flawed, the upper fret access is bad designed, the pickups are noisy,cumbersome location of the pots etc etc.

oh Dan it just learn to read and crunch my previous post. o am rehashing what I said before!!

Ok. Let go academic?.

Bridge allows you to individually set up every saddle for every string. You cannot do that with a Tune-o-Matic, neither in a Tele, right?. That was a big improvement for intonnation and action. Floyd Rose system, Willkinson's, and rest of modern floating tremolos were the natural evolution and, the are very wellcome (but, they affect to tone).

Upper fret access is bad designed, yes, I agree but, I think LP is even harder. SG and Flying V make it easier. Deluxe stratos have an small cut in their neck pocket that works awesome for this issue and affects not to tone.

Pickups are noisy but have a tone that you cannot get in other way!. P90's are noisy as well and, even unpotted humbuckers will squeal as pigs under high gain.
Even guitar amps are imperfect from the point of view of Hi-Fi (that means, to amplify the input signal wihout any kind of distortion) but, this flaw is what makes them "musically appealing to the human ear". In same way, strato singles (even noisy) have some musical magic, as PAFs or P90s have their own.

To me, location of pickups selector (blade switch) and controls (pots) is just perfect, everything is at hand. I also like LP controls layout, no issues.
I woud say that something wrong is by example, the situation of the jack in the Epiphone Wilshire, just between the controls or, some vibrato arms that stand between strings...

All this without taking into account the possibility to substitute parts by yourself, without having to go to a Luthier.
You can swap the neck, you can swap the body, you can swap the complete pickguard, bridge parts... It has a very modular design.

And, from the perspective that Super-Strat are evoluted strats that are making-up the flaws of the original design... we can go up to the root: the classic spanish guitar, right?.
The accoustic guitar is an evolution of the classic spanish guitar.
The Semi-hollow body in an evolution of the accoustic guitar.
The solid body is an evolution of the semi-hollow body.
The SG is an evolution of the LP, as de double-cut is.
And you can see LPs with Floyd Rose, with three pickups (sick!).

None of those evolutions removed from the face of the earth the guitar type from where they evoluted and, new evolutions didn't made them second to none.
I love all kind of axes. Just some models will better suit my particular case but all them are interesting, for some distinctive reason.

That's my point of view. Not defending any particular maker/model but respecting all them.

 

[LReese]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Like I said at the beginning of the thread - to each his own...

Good points made on both sides, but everything just boils down to individual preference - More traditional design vs a more modern/modular (by 1950s standards) design philosophy.

 

[Ball&Chain]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Dude, I play a Les Paul also. Gibson might have an argument, but for 3x's the price. IMO the access to the last fret is easier on my strat than my Paul, and I have large hands. I also agree with you, I'll take my LP over my strat any day. I like the ergonomics of the strat, with the forearm bevel, I don't get the indentation in my forearm from leaning on the edge as I do with the LP. I agree about the Jackson, I love my soloist, but in essence, it is a strat imitation with slight alterations in design & improvements as stated in my original post.

Your typical LP standard has a bit more to the manufacturing from the woods, to the arch top, set neck, binding etc. which will figure into the higher cost over a standard usa strat. Just looking at the 2 guitars, I would expect to pay more for an LP. As far as manufacturing, an LP studio is probably a little better comparison of features at a similar price point even.

As far as access. It really depends on playing style. if your a thumb over neck player, an LP is probably going to be more limiting than a strat. I'm a thumb behind the neck player, so the horn on the strat is more forbidding to me.

A soloist is a strat, but not a slightly altered strat. There is a fundamental change in the body design which alters the original design significantly. Its a strat style guitar sure, but most definitely not a strat in the traditional sense.

 

[Ball&Chain]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Ok. Let go academic?.

Bridge allows you to individually set up every saddle for every string. You cannot do that with a Tune-o-Matic, neither in a Tele, right?. That was a big improvement for intonnation and action. Floyd Rose system, Willkinson's, and rest of modern floating tremolos were the natural evolution and, the are very wellcome (but, they affect to tone).

You shouldn't need to with a tune-o-matic. The saddles already have a radius to match the radius of the fretboard. The Floyd Rose as mentioned as an improvement on the strat bridge is really closer to a TOM bridge in its adjustment and containing pre-radiused saddles.


As a side note. Another complaint Ive always had with a strat bridge is also again in relation to the allen screws. Inevitably as you play and the screws contact your hand and in addition to drawing blood, they tend to work loose, collapsing the saddle to one side or the other, thereby screwing up your aforementioned individual saddle action adjustment.

 

[blueman335]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

You shouldn't need to with a tune-o-matic. The saddles already have a radius to match the radius of the fretboard. The Floyd Rose as mentioned as an improvement on the strat bridge is really closer to a TOM bridge in its adjustment and containing pre-radiused saddles.


As a side note. Another complaint Ive always had with a strat bridge is also again in relation to the allen screws. Inevitably as you play and the screws contact your hand and in addition to drawing blood, they tend to work loose, collapsing the saddle to one side or the other, thereby screwing up your aforementioned individual saddle action adjustment.

+1. Being used to the simplicity of a TOM, I find Fender tailpieces to be difficult to adjust and play. Yes it's more versatile, but there's also drawbacks that go with that (as have been pointed out). There's compromises with both. With LP's having a 16th fret neck/body juncture, and Strats having a 17th, there's not enough difference to get into an argument over. If you need full access to the top frets, go all the way and get an SG, Flying V, or Super Strat. As far as modular goes, the last thing I want is a modular guitar. I have no desire to change necks like I change my shoes. If you need to be able to replace broken necks, either you have a problem with your equilibrium or drinking, and might want to consider a more rugged instrument.

Again, this is all personal preference, shaped largely by what we're accustomed to, and what our heroes played. None of are going to change each other's minds. If you want to justify your choices, you'll come across better using less emotion and opinion. There is no 'best', it's just what's 'best' for you. Even when we get down to cold, hard facts, there's no right or wrong as to what instrument or music you prefer to play.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Fender bridges is just not the old ones anymore....
And there is a ton of options these days...
Have used Gotoh hardware for the last couple of decades now...
My CS Beck is smooth as it can be...even with the oldschool bridges I never had any of the trouble you mention...
There is plenty of modern guitars with no issues...

As for oldchool stuff, nothing a good setup will not cure!

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

The TOM assumes that the neck and fretwork are uniformly consistent. The Strat bridge allows for you to compensate for variations. Nothing wrong with either approach, just different.

 

[papersoul]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

..i played my jazzmaster for a long time. why is that damn volume knob for the strat so close to the pickup? i prefer to have some breathing space there for my pinky. time to mod the damn strat or just sell it.

It is a very good design.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Leo...designed them to be cheap to produce so every player could afford one. Looking at the pricing of current American-made models, it would seem that the Fender corporation does not embrace the concept with equal fervor.

these are classic misconceptions. fenders, short of the student models [musicmaster and duo-sonic], were never designed to be cheap instruments by leo. easy to produce, yes. less than gibsons, yes. but their retail prices were not really all that much lower than gibsons. with as much as they cost at the time, they were obviously not within the everyday joe guitarist's price range. when fender guitars got rolling, leo wasn't going after the department store guitar market; he was going for the jugular - gibson, gretsch, guild. look at the prices of the time, adjust for inflation, and you will see two things - 1. neither fender nor gibson were ''working man's'' guitars, and 2. adjusted prices for comparable u.s.a.-made guitars by the same companies today are actually less than they were back then. then there are quality mim and squier guitars for 20 to 50 percent. fender is truer to the ''working man's guitar'' concept at this very moment than they ever have been.

 

[blueman335]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

fenders... were never designed to be cheap instruments by leo. easy to produce, yes.

adjusted prices for comparable u.s.a.-made guitars by the same companies today are actually less than they were back then. then there are quality mim and squier guitars for 20 to 50 percent. fender is truer to the ''working man's guitar'' concept at this very moment than they ever have been.

As an accountant, let me clarify that: 'easier to produce' = lower costs and a 'cheaper' product. That's how numbers work. Doesn't necessarily mean the product is low quality. Gibson went the other direction and used more expensive, traditional features. Doesn't necessarily make them better, just different. Gives consumers more choices.

Manufacturing has changed over the decades so you can't adjust for inflation and magically have a level playing field, professor. Guitars are made differently now than they were in the 1950's, and in far greater quantities, which means fixed costs and overhead are spread out over many more units, and the unit cost of making guitars drops way down. By your logic, the early VCR's of the 1970's which sold for over $1,000 (and spent most of their time in the repair shop), should cost how much these days? You can get new VCR's of far superior quality today (and DVD players) for how much? If you don't take into account technology, volume, supply networks, shipping costs, global competition, etc. you can't just use inflation to compare prices of things today to things from decades ago and think that tells you anything.

 

[dr. ad]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

adieu, that is one sexy v

 

[vinta9e]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Whether you like it or hate it, the Stratocaster has been among the most groundbreaking and influential guitar designs ever made. Wasn't it the first double cutaway electric, the first to have what we call now the "vintage tremolo", and all the electronics mounted on a pickguard? What about the comfort cuts and the output jack casing, I haven't seen anything like that earlier on.

The Les Paul, the famous Fenders like the Stratocaster & Tele, and the early 'shaped' guitars altogether like the V and Explorer, the Firebird and the Rico's (I see them as slightly related to each other) defined the standards for what today's solid bodies look like and how they are made. Apart from a couple of exceptions, like the Delta Wing, fancy handmade Teuffels and highly synthetic Parkers, practically every feature on any currently produced model can be traced back to these designs.

A set neck, a bolt-on neck or a through-body one, a single cutaway, double cutaway or pointy/wavy shaped body, which happens to be either a flat slab of single wood species, one with a top carved out of maple, or something that more or less combines these two ideas; angled or flat headstock, 21/22 or 24 fret fingerboard or no separate fingerboard at all, 6-inline or 3-a-side tuners (yeah, 4+2 exceptions), a bridge based around the concepts of stud-mount or flat-baseplate (by the way, let's not forget Mr. Bigsby's ideas), maybe a fulcrum tremolo, maybe strung through the body; most often single coil or humbucker pickups or both, or something combining their forms and functions; a stained finish, a solid color one or a natural one; be it a rich, sophisticated, highly ornamented visual style, something rootsy and basic, or something a little eccentric, playful and avant garde...

I don't blame Fender nor Gibson for trying to stay true to their original designs, given their ideas have been incorporated or imitated by almost everyone else. However, I don't see that as a reason not to move the volume pot to another location where it's more comfortable for an individual's playing style. If it is that disturbing, go ahead and rip it out. Yngwie did just that with a chunk of fretboard. Eddie did that with a chunk of body wood and nailed a humbucker into that hole. Customizing your own tools is not a blasphemy.

 

[jcthejester13]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

I love strat sounds, but hate the layout of the switch and knobs. I get why they are there. They just don't work for my playing style. I have a wide sweeping strum pattern and I almost always hit the switch when I'm strumming fast.

 

[leftyaxeman]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

A soloist is a strat, but not a slightly altered strat. There is a fundamental change in the body design which alters the original design significantly. Its a strat style guitar sure, but most definitely not a strat in the traditional sense.

Hmm,,, since the thread was about the strat design, I would venture to say a Soloist is based on the innovative design of the strat, as opposed to a Les Paul, SG, Explorer, ES-335, Flying V, Tele, Warlock, Mockingbird, jazzbox, etc. Essentially a modern strat type guitar, that owes it's basic shape & origin to the strat. Sure we could nitpick the differences, 24 frets to 21 frets, HB-SC, neck thru to bolt on, but the silhouette is in essence of strat origin. I imagine, if you were to show the silhouettes of the above guitars to the general public, they would say the Soloist owes it shape to...

 

[Ball&Chain]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Hmm,,, since the thread was about the strat design, I would venture to say a Soloist is based on the innovative design of the strat, as opposed to a Les Paul, SG, Explorer, ES-335, Flying V, Tele, Warlock, Mockingbird, jazzbox, etc. Essentially a modern strat type guitar, that owes it's basic shape & origin to the strat. Sure we could nitpick the differences, 24 frets to 21 frets, HB-SC, neck thru to bolt on, but the silhouette is in essence of strat origin. I imagine, if you were to show the silhouettes of the above guitars to the general public, they would say the Soloist owes it shape to...

Not sure where you are going here in regards to my post. It looks like you might be trying to refute what I said, but nothing I said is really in conflict with what you are saying until you go on to say "nitpicking" Those are some significant changes you mention that result in a very different animal than a traditional strat and that's not even mentioning alterations to the body style.

The general public would look at the silhouette of a PRS Single Cut or an ESP Eclipse and say "Les Paul". That doesn't change the fact that they are very different though still being roughly based on the LP shape.

General Public really has no bearing on this discussion anyway.

 

[leftyaxeman]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Not sure where you are going here in regards to my post. It looks like you might be trying to refute what I said, but nothing I said is really in conflict with what you are saying until you go on to say "nitpicking" Those are some significant changes you mention that result in a very different animal than a traditional strat and that's not even mentioning alterations to the body style.

The general public would look at the silhouette of a PRS Single Cut or an ESP Eclipse and say "Les Paul". That doesn't change the fact that they are very different though still being roughly based on the LP shape.

General Public really has no bearing on this discussion anyway.

Thought we were discussing strat design, not PRS SC or ESP Eclipse. Wasn't trying to refute anything. Point being the strat being one of the most copied designs out there, as stated in my original post. Period.

Relax. I guess the word nitpick hit a nerve, not intended. So the Soloist owes it shape to... jk

 

[Ball&Chain]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

Thought we were discussing strat design, not PRS SC or ESP Eclipse. Wasn't trying to refute anything. Point being the strat being one of the most copied designs out there, as stated in my original post. Period.

Relax. I guess the word nitpick hit a nerve, not intended. So the Soloist owes it shape to... jk

It was an anology. I was basically saying just because the shape is reminiscent of a more iconic shape, doesnst mean they are the same thing. Hence the nitpicking. Saying all those differences are nipicking is kinda like saying a pond being different from lake erie is nitpicking. They both contain water, so whats the big deal.

 

[leftyaxeman]

Re: i never realized how stupid of a design the strat has until...

It was an anology. I was basically saying just because the shape is reminiscent of a more iconic shape, doesnst mean they are the same thing. Hence the nitpicking. Saying all those differences are nipicking is kinda like saying a pond being different from lake erie is nitpicking. They both contain water, so whats the big deal.

:banghead: