Ibanez wood fraud

[WDeeGee]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

It's deliberate imprecision – not fraud.

Uhm... it is deceptive. Maybe not to someone who's aware of the fiddling goin' on with wood names like you, but is remains wilfull deception. I'm just glad the bass sound good now, with the pups raised a bit. Made quite a difference.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Uhm... it is deceptive. Maybe not to someone who's aware of the fiddling goin' on with wood names like you, but is remains wilfull deception. I'm just glad the bass sound good now, with the pups raised a bit. Made quite a difference.

No, it is not.

They stated what it is made of, and that’s almost certainly what it’s made of. What they stated simply covers a broad range of lumber.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

No, it is not.

They stated what it is made of, and that’s almost certainly what it’s made of. What they stated simply covers a broad range of lumber.

So what it is made of ?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

So what it is made of ?

Wood, according to 4/5 attorneys.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

So what it is made of ?

As spec’d, most likely.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

The problem is that the customer and the manufacturer have different definitions for the term mahogany. When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.

Caveat emptor

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[AlexR]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

^ Most people don't want to be educated in such matters......and from the debacle we've seen here, guitar players in general would be horrified because they only want to stir up a fuss that is wholly unrelated to the reality of the useful aspects of the guitar. This is the forum equivalent of clickbait.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.

It's not communication, it's marketing.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Just buy from companies that don't do that, or at least don't appear to do that. Send them a message and let them know why you don't buy their products.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Some might call it lying. If they would just be a little more transparent, this could all be avoided. When information isn't forthcoming, we have to cling to what we can find. I am going to make buying decisions based on things like this.

That's what "Caveat emptor" means.

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[ItsaBass]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

They are selling as "mahogany" something that can most likely reasonably be called "mahogany," and which they most likely purchased as "mahogany."

It's loose. It's vague. It's imprecise. It's broad and general. But for that very reason, it's not lying, it's not deception, and it's not fraud. They use the loose description on purpose, so they can use a wide variety of woods without being fraudulent. They wouldn't want to spec "Agathis" on something, and then have an unexpected problem with their Agathis wood supply.

SO MANY types of low end Asian-Pacific lumber are sold as "mahogany." The factory itself probably buys their lumber for such guitars as "mahogany," from their lumber distributors, and don't know exactly what they are going to get, other than that it's something that the distributor is selling as "mahogany." If they knew exactly what they were getting and using for an entire line, they'd probably say so. "Agathis" can be referred to as mahogany. But sometimes it is referred to as Agathis. The difference? I'd say it's the known consistency of supply.

In other words, it makes sense that the generality would be to prevent themselves from lying when using a wood supply that is by its nature inconsistent. Generality to cover your ass is not lying, deception, or fraud. It's knowing that you can't be specific, and stating as much.

At any rate, this conversation really has nowhere to go until the OP sends a sample of the wood in to a lab for analysis. We have an out of focus photo with the wood obscured by coloring, and we are just trusting the OP's statement that the bass was supposed to have a mahogany body, based on serial number. We don't know the original retailer, or have access to the original description. And we don't have a proven timeline of when the manufacturer changed the published specs.

For me, the bottom line is that if the OP thinks that fraud was committed, then by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities and see what happens with the case...and get ready to be laughed at.

Nobody got screwed here. Probably not even when the bass was new, and certainly not if bought on the used market.

You have to be smart enough to read through the noise made by marketing machines.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

I like chocolate ice cream
All chocolate ice cream doesn't taste the same
Sometimes it has less of the good stuff
And more MSG

I just dont keep buying the stuff I don't like
Just to get the bucket it comes in
That's stupid

 

[Demanic]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

They are selling as "mahogany" something that can most likely reasonably be called "mahogany," and which they most likely purchased as "mahogany."

It's loose. It's vague. It's imprecise. It's broad and general. But for that very reason, it's not lying, it's not deception, and it's not fraud. They use the loose description on purpose, so they can use a wide variety of woods without being fraudulent. They wouldn't want to spec "Agathis" on something, and then have an unexpected problem with their Agathis wood supply.

SO MANY types of low end Asian-Pacific lumber are sold as "mahogany." The factory itself probably buys their lumber for such guitars as "mahogany," from their lumber distributors, and don't know exactly what they are going to get, other than that it's something that the distributor is selling as "mahogany." If they knew exactly what they were getting and using for an entire line, they'd probably say so. "Agathis" can be referred to as mahogany. But sometimes it is referred to as Agathis. The difference? I'd say it's the known consistency of supply.

In other words, it makes sense that the generality would be to prevent themselves from lying when using a wood supply that is by its nature inconsistent. Generality to cover your ass is not lying, deception, or fraud. It's knowing that you can't be specific, and stating as much.

At any rate, this conversation really has nowhere to go until the OP sends a sample of the wood in to a lab for analysis. We have an out of focus photo with the wood obscured by coloring, and we are just trusting the OP's statement that the bass was supposed to have a mahogany body, based on serial number. We don't know the original retailer, or have access to the original description. And we don't have a proven timeline of when the manufacturer changed the published specs.

For me, the bottom line is that if the OP thinks that fraud was committed, then by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities and see what happens with the case...and get ready to be laughed at.

Nobody got screwed here. Probably not even when the bass was new, and certainly not if bought on the used market.

You have to be smart enough to read through the noise made by marketing machines.

Hints of Ayn?..

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[Jacew]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Professor at university where I went used to use Pseudotsuga Menziesii as example of this:

Pseudotsuga means pseudo-hemlock, its common name is Douglas fir, in finnish it's Douglas spruce and when it's processed, wood sold is Oregon pine... It is really none of those, but it's own genus completely.

Point is if they're selling Agathis as mahogany, it's very deliberate misleading, as both are commonly used woods in instruments by the name, and mahogany simply is better selling material. I think arguing over whether that's "lying", "misleading" or "fraud" is pointless semantics. We all know by know in thread what's going on.

Of course it could legtitly some other species commonly sold as mahogany, and I, for one, would be interested to know what?

 

[WDeeGee]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

... they only want to stir up a fuss that is wholly unrelated to the reality of the useful aspects of the guitar. This is the forum equivalent of clickbait.

OP here, two things:

1) Not wholly unrelated: the bass sounded thin, and had weak sustain. Because the 2017 Ibz catalogue claimed the bass was made of mahogany, but the wood wasn't reddish (as I had understood mahogany to be), I assumed the bad sound was because they used an inferior wood, thus conning their customer (we are all customers here). Turns out adjusting the pickup height solved the tone/sustain problem really well. If the tone was good to begin with, I probably wouldn't have made such a big fuss about it.

2) Yes, I opted to use the strongest possible term ("fraud") in the title to get attention. Apparently it worked and I found the discussion very worthwhile. Thank you. I learned that some mahogany is white, that "mahogany" isn't strictly "mahogany", and so on. Also learned that adjusting pickup height does so very much for a bass (I'm primarily a guitar player), or maybe it's characteristic of the Powerspan pups to be so sensitive to pup height?

I agree that it is logical guitar manufacturers would lump similar wood types together under the same banner if that is what suppliers do too (it would be cumbersome, expensive and near impossible for manufacturers to figure out what kind of tree each batch really is). As said, if they really wanted only one exact type of wood, they may run out of supply. That is not feasable for mass produced budget guitars. Given how players are focused on tonewood names (mahogany, maple..) specifying all of this in the catalogues would be confusing and probably offputting. Ultimately, if it sounds good and plays well, who cares what it's made of? I don't. Quite happy with what the bass is for its price, tbh.

Thanks for chippin' in, y'all.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Please define "good tonewood," or even "tonewood," for that matter, as they relate to electric guitars. Please point us to any research on this topic that provides solid answers as to how the selection of wood species in general can be used to reliably/predictably control the tonal properties of a single electric guitar. If you can, you win the Internet for 1,000 years.

Go ahead and be annoyed by specs not being as claimed...but please don't bring wives tales about the subjective and nearly impossible to test superiority or inferiority of various "tonewoods" into it. It makes you look foolish.

I can't even tell the color of the wood that well from your photo. It's not even in focus.

Doesn't matter. That just means there's even less reason to lie about what it's made from.

 

[vinta9e]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

if it sounds good and plays well, who cares what it's made of?

I actually do.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Someone send a memo to Ibanez: Don't sell to WDeeGee again....

I'm glad it is working out for you, but again, we are discussing the tone woodz factor in a $299 NEW bass...Point. Completely. Missed.

#1 Had the glitch not been there I bet you wouldn't have said a word. We'll never know.
#2 You didn't seem to think adjusting the pups was a thing

- Always be prepared to return an online purchase
- Always be prepared to set up any guitar (or bass). Especially a $5k Gibson.

After that there is ONE and only one rule:

If it FEELS good, and SOUNDS good, it IS good.

 

[Chris Pile]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Aceman is right. In the 70's I had a Western Auto Truetone guitar - basically a double cutaway Harmony hollow body (Red Devil?). I yanked the crappy fake Bigsby and installed a bail-type tailpiece. Had a big fat bound baseball bat of a neck, with triangular shaped fret markers, and 19 brass frets. 3 bolt neck. Sounded great. Play wonderfully. Paid $25 for it at a yard sale.

Eventually, I put some used DiMarzios in it, and upgraded all the hardware. It was still great. Loaned it to my oldest friend who played it in college, jazz band, stage band, wherever. After 5 years, he gave it back. I played it another 5 years and finally sold it to some student at the store for $150.

It was a dog**** guitar, and yet we both sit and kick ourselves for letting it go. Good is good, period.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Ibanez wood fraud

Hints of Ayn?..

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Oh, did you think you smell bullsh*t? that's when you know Ayn's in the house.